Removing waves from a welded panel

[60 Plymouth]

Hi All,

I'm hoping somone here could help out?

I have a 1960 Plymouth Belvedere that has undergone a previous restoration. My concern is with the rear wings. These are large, flatish panels with most of the crown running top to bottom, but a little running lengthways, see image below:



About 20 years ago a lower-half patch panel was let into the wing, the seam being around 15" up from the bottom. The repair section runs from the tail lights to the rear door.

Although on the outside this looks pretty good,it has been 'shaped' with filler. The inside of the fender shows around three/four 'waves' in the panel. The peaks and troughs of the waves run top to bottom, the waves 'flowing' in a fore/aft direction. I guess from peak to trough is around 3/8" depth.

I'm guessing the waves are there due to distortion caused by the welding but I can't say for sure. Both left and right sides are the same, with the same enormous patch panel.

I'd like to remove the filler at some point and dress out these waves, and try to metal finish the panel. I don't mind using a skim of filler here and there but would much prefer to do it all with the sheet.

Is it at all possible to try and remove these waves? The work was done a long time ago, long before I aquired the car.

And to add yet more difficulty to the situation, I am a novice with no access to oxy/acetylene gear.

Anybody got any ideas? I've had a search for waves/waviness but I don't think I know the correct terms to search for. Are there any tutorials on doing this kind of thing?

Once again, thanks for your help guys, the knowledge and assistance on this forum is unparalleled.

All the best,
Conor

[MP&C]

Conor, welcome to metalmeet! As to your wavy panel, typically when a panel is welded, you experience some shrinking in the immediate area of the weld. In order to counter this effect, someone should have planished the weld to stretch it back out a bit. In essence, the shrinking that occurs from the heat of welding will cause a crowned panel (think of an arc) to shrink and in effect the arc will tend to straighten in more the form of a straight line as it shrinks. Of course, this all depends on the amount of heat, starting & stopping of the weld, etc., but what you will see when the crown of the panel straightens out is that your nicely crowned panel will now have a sunken valley down through the middle of the weld. Hope that helps to explain what you may have there, here's my reply to another thread recently that discussed similar issues.....

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showp...4&postcount=11

[60 Plymouth]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the response!

I've had a look at the link, I kind of understand the principle, I'm just struggling to see how the metal has been moved by the weld. On my panel, the valley is at 90 degrees to the weld (valley runs up/down, weld runs fore/aft), I'm having a bit of trouble picturing how this can be.

Are you saying that more heat in some parts of the weld would lead to more shrinkage and hence less crown? (like in the third drawing up in your link, but that only happens in 'valley' area. As you go along the weld on my panel you get to some valleys and some peaks - the peaks where shrinkage is less?)

Thanks for the welcome too - though now I see my post count as one and I'm sure I've posted on here before, I've certainly be studying the forum for around three years!

Once again, thanks for the help,
All the best,
Conor

[MP&C]

As a long linear weld shrinks, it also may have a tendancy to pull the surrounding metal, which is resisting the shrinking, resulting in buckles, in and out.... Perhaps that is the distortion you see perpendicular to the weld seam??

[Cadzook]

Conor, to get your head around what has happened in your quarter panel take a piece of paper and pull one edge together to simulate shrinking. You will see that the waves do run out perpendicular to the weld. As you stretch it back out you will see how it flattens back out.
The car looks to be finished off nicely, are there other reasons that you want to do this repair?

Good luck and have fun!
Alden

[60 Plymouth]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the late reply, a house move is getting in the way of more important things!

Reason for the change is simple - that picture is about 3 years old, and doesn't show the filler lifting behind the tail lights, which is now a little worse than it was then.

About a year ago, I rolled over somthing in the garage, and the tyres on one side of the car went down, allowing her to gently lean into the wall, denting one door and the wheel arch part of the fender (where inner and outer have now seperated). Since I have to repair this section anyway, I figured it may be an idea to sort the rippling as well.

There are however, lots of other jobs that I need to do before tackling this one, so there may well be a few more threads on the way when I get stuck right in.

Take a closer look at that picture and you'll see the door bottoms rotting away. The rockers also need to be replaced (car was at some point sand blasted. Sand collected in the rockers and neatly kept the moisture in). In addition, the trunk lid skin is coming apart. The skin seams were sealed in such a way that moisture could get in, condense and collect where the skin is turned over the frame. Pulling the sealer off reveals very little steel in that area (either frame or skin), and bits of bubbling in the skin a few inches inboard. The trunk skin has quite a lot of shape in it so I'll need to get hold of a tree stump and some steel to try and make patch panels.

Cadzook - I think I see what you mean with the weld - you're saying the edge of the paper is the weld correct? And the shrinking occurs in the direction of the weld so to speak?

[mindover]

Cadzook is correct in his comment and his description of what has happened to your panel.
(very good analogy)

The problem you face is how well was it welded?. If the paint has started to lift it suggests that the weld may be porous. If the weld is very poor it may be a case of having to cut out metal and replace the weld to get a good result. ( possibly a new panel)

With luck you may have a good weld and it may dress out OK. In any case you will need to planish and file the weld to achieve a smooth or at least smoother panel.

You will have to look inside the car at the welding and see if it is fairly neat. If it looks a mess you will have to decide if you want to get involved or not. If you do then you need to remove the filler. Once the filler has been removed you will be able to see what has been done and more importantly needs to be done to correct it. If you post some photos on here at that stage I am sure you will get lots of advice.

It could be a big undertaking but if you are up for it you will learn a lot. I show a little of all the processes needed to repair your car on my youtube footage, this may give you some idea about what is involved.

David

[60 Plymouth]

Hi David,

Thanks for the response. I have to say congratulations on your DVD, it's the single most potent bodywork tool I own.

On my panel on the inside, the weld appears to be good and solid, with good penetration. The filler lifting I am getting is on the same panel but in a different area, I figured if I have to remove it from there I may as well take the whole lot off. I think now, I will remove the filler from the area that is effected and leave the rest alone.

It is a job that I feel I will tackle at some point, but for now it can stay as is. I took a step back from the car to see what I want to achieve, and I think my best bet is to cut the rot out of some of the other panels and drive. This rippling can stay as is for now, it is not as pressing as some of the other panels.

Thanks for your help everyone, I really appreciate it.