"Viva La Difference"

[captainkirk]

First off I'm going to "Try my best" to state my goal for this post right up front so hopefully it will "Cut Down" on the confusion.

Goal: To "DISCUSS" the differences in peoples goals as relates to the subject of metal shaping.
(If your opposed to this goal please press the "Back button on your computer Now.)

What brought about this post...and why do I care?

There was a post I started that's stated goal was to start a discussion on a subject related to metal shaping, during the discussion Richard Crees (AKA Rod Doc) posted what amounted to a total rebuke of the efforts and stated that I was going about everything wrong and that I should only follow advise from "Experts" like him with 40 years in the business.
There was no need to discuss anything I should just start to beat out a complicated fender from a 30 style car and if I possessed the innate abilities and had been born with them like he had then I would succeed or at least find out that I didn't have it in me to begin with.
What ensued was a separation into two distinct groups and the entire post effectively came to an end with loads of anger and misunderstanding for everyone involved. I asked that the post be shut down rather than be responsible for more problems and a return to the type of behavior that has fractured the metal shaping community at least three distinct times in the recent past.

I then told myself to never post again and move on with life on a much more happy note, but it has bothered me that this happened and that it has happened to so many people in the past.
I spent some time going over all the posts and trying to decide what "Might" (as in my interpretation) have gone wrong and where might lie the clues to what goes wrong in these discussions.

Here is what I concluded.
Myself and Richard Crees have two distinct sets of goals driving the desire to shape sheet metal.
As I have stated I am "semiretired" I didn't shape sheet metal for a living, I am an inventor and innovator by nature. I like to see how philosophy relates to complicated goals and how it might be employed to help better understand everything. I wish to build parts for motorcycles and build "innovative" tools related to both industries. I also thought that it would be good to include some humor and try to have fun in the pursuit.

Going by what Richard stated his need is to accomplish the goal at hand to make the most amount of money in the shortest amount of time. He needs to make a living at this and has for 40 years and he knows how to do it. He seems to want people up to speed as fast as possible and making money at this as fast as possible and anything else is a waste of time and is a futile effort. Lots of talking is a waste of time and all the frivolity is likewise a waste of time that would be better spent making more money.

See where I'm getting here? Two totally different goals two distinctly different lives with way different "needs" and viewpoints.

Depending on where your life fits into the "Big Scheme" of things you could side with one or the other (or neither). If you are trying to feed a family and have to make a living fixing cars you could easily side with Richard as being correct.
If you are learning this as a goal for a hobby and want to do a home project with no real time frame in mind and learning this as a subject is your goal then I might be more correct to you.

What has happened so many times in the past is that a person decides that their way and their goals and how they do things is the only true goal, and just like when people decide that their religion is the only true religion and they know who the only true god is war breaks out.

The failure is in the thought that you "Know anything to be true" to begin with, and that you should force your "Truth" onto others and they will either do it your way or you will put whatever pressure you can muster to make them conform. In history this has gone right up to actually trying to kill whoever doesn't believe what you do with the hope that if they are eradicated all that will be left is "right minded people"...just like you.

For thousands of years these struggles for control of "Right vs. Wrong" have resulted in huge conflicts.

If history is to be believed most things that are thought of to be "totally true" at one time have been proved to be totally false at another, unfortunately not in time to save the poor souls that were burned at the cross or stuffed into ovens or drawn and quartered.

Ask yourself why does it matter so much that everyone believe what you do?

Perhaps only one real goal surfaces throughout history "Control" and the resultant money and power that goes along with it.

If you wish to avoid conflict then don't look to control others thoughts or deeds and learn from the past few thousand years...everything you think is true today is likely going to be proven wrong in the future.

Respect others goals and ways and don't look to control them or make them change to suit your needs and everything will go much better in the future.

And no one needs to get nailed to anything.

Peace out

Kirk

This is under the Chat Zone which I have interpreted to mean that it is allowed to be having a discussion here that doesn't specifically have to do with beating on metal, but is related to the effort which I think that this discussion is most definitely related to.

[tekfab]

Hi Kirk, well i'm personally glad that you have decided to continue posting.
And i dont care if someone has being doing a job for 40yrs doesnt make them an expert

Mike

[bobadame]

I think that by definition, if someone has been making a living doing something a certain way for 40 years, that person is definitely an expert. I hope that Richard continues to post and I'm really glad that Kirk has.

Casimir Narwaki does things his way. His methods are self taught, many of his machines are home made and are definitely not cookie cutter examples of what is currently agreed to be the "right" design or "stiff enough". Seems to work for him just fine. I believe that Richard is also self taught and also an expert in his own right. Lots of ways to do just about anything.

Peace out indeed.

[thehammerworks]

Originally Posted by bobadame

I think that by definition, if someone has been making a living doing something a certain way for 40 years, that person is definitely an expert. I hope that Richard continues to post and I'm really glad that Kirk has.

Casimir Narwaki does things his way. His methods are self taught, many of his machines are home made and are definitely not cookie cutter examples of what is currently agreed to be the "right" design or "stiff enough". Seems to work for him just fine. I believe that Richard is also self taught and also an expert in his own right. Lots of ways to do just about anything.

Peace out indeed.

my thoughts exactly bob

[captainkirk]

"Caution" this is likely going to really piss off some people.

There are lots of people that seem to want to be seen as an "Expert" in something that they have achieved some level of competency, and in some fields of endeavor there is actually a way to define when they have arrived.

Like a "Master Clock repairman" can have that title bestowed on him I have been told by a recognized governing body certified to give testing.

Master electrician title is likewise given by people to others that have achieved a level of study and passed many competency tests and many years of training both classroom and in the field being monitored by qualified people.

You could get a "Masters degree" or a PHD in many fields of study which show a certain level of achievement academically. I have worked with many of these people over many years and can tell you that few I would consider an "Expert in their field of study" lots of them were good at taking tests.

There is a guy three miles from me that has been working doing auto body as a business and making money at it for thirty years or more and he doesn't even own a torch, how is that even possible????

I personally have been working on motorcycles for the past 40 years and have achieved a certain level of competency in the field of study, but I'm not aware of any way to get a "Masters degree" in Motorcycle repair nor would I run around referring to myself as and "Expert" or master in the field.

What's interesting is in the field of "Metal Shaping" people readily throw about the terms "Master metal Shaper" or "Expert" and seem to want to point at their "years in the field" as having qualified them to hold the title.
Just because someone has been in a field of study for many years does not make them an "Expert", sure you personally might bestow that title on someone as a sort of "sign" that you respect them but that doesn't make them one.
Just because a guy works repairing cars for 40 years doesn't make him a "Master car repairman" Although you can take testing by groups like the SAE and get certified in a subject or there might be a masters course somewhere.

Hopefully you get the point of what I'm saying the terms "Master or Expert" are hard to define unless there is a group of "qualified people" that have themselves proven the right to bestow such a qualification .

The field of metal shaping has as far as I know no such group of people qualified to make that call. Just because someone has been doing something for many years does not inherently make them anything and a bunch of guys trying to learn how to beat out a shape in sheet metal are not qualified to bestow the title on them either.

When I started to try and learn the "Art of metal shaping" I quickly found out that there were few people that taught it and a scattered few making a real living doing it. Like many I decided to make my own wheeling machine and what I quickly found out was that there was precious little factual information on the subject. I personally found no one that even understood how they worked and what made a good one or a bad one.
Truth be told there were people building hundreds of the things that had no engineering background and didn't understand anything and the wheels they created were total crap and it was really easy to prove it with simple load tests.
What was also really funny was the number of people lined up to buy these crap wheeling machines and calling the guy building them an "Expert" and a Master builder.
There wasn't even a recognized design at the time or any specifications for such a machine and no way to really tell if they were good or total crap, but there was no lack of people willing to bestow the Expert title on the guys building them.

One of the wheels I encountered that was built by a "supposed expert" weighed over 800lbs and was huge it was also built so poorly that it proved to be unusable to build even the simplest of panels. This "thing" cost over $3,000 and was so poorly designed that it actually wasn't usable, but because of its size and cost it was touted as the finest of English wheels on the market.

This thing was a total POS and the guy building it called himself an "Expert" and people lined up to buy his stuff. Soon the guy was able to claim that he had built "Hundreds of wheeling machines" and that they were the finest in the world....who was there to prove him wrong?...No one!

There was another guy that was on this web site for years and had well over 3,000 posts and regularly referred to himself as an expert and there was no lack of people that were calling him a "Master Metal Shaper" this guy regularly belittled people and said people didn't know what they were talking about and soon was a respected member in good standing of the "Experts" on this site.
Until one day when one guy went through all of this guys posts and found that there was not one containing anything that the guy had actually shaped. Not one project not one photograph in well over 3,000 posts, the guy was a total fake and had been for years. He was a complete novice with little to no real skills and had been able to be recognized for years as an "Expert" in this field.

There is no Metal Shaping governing body, there are no tests to take and there are precious few people that could even pass a basic competency test in how to shape if there were such tests. This subject is best described as an "Art Form" and most people trying to learn it could best be described as a group of blind squirrels looking for an acorn. I know that's going to really piss off a bunch of guys that want to be seen as "experts" or Master Shapers but the fact is that as a collective group there has been very little in the way of "Facts" written about metal shaping.
There are also as many ways of doing it as there are people shaping sheet metal.

There are no judges and there is no way to tell and there are so many people trying to gain even the most basic of skill sets in this field that it is easy to give the appearance of being an expert. There's no one to prove you wrong you can claim whatever you want.

In a total farce of a post I declared myself "King of Metal Meet" it was all meant to be in good fun and I never meant it to indicate that I was an expert or master. I had actually been able to just declare myself a King and there was no one in a position to dethrone me...it was brilliant!

It also really pissed off a bunch of guys that were running around declaring themselves as Experts and Masters...they actually got mad at me for it?

It was a classic case of "The Emperors New Clothes" I was running around totally naked claiming to be the King and there was no one to prove me wrong. .
It also proved that there was no one to prove that anyone was truly an "Expert" or "Master Metal Shaper" or any such title even exists...it's a total crock of crap. Now I knew why people were getting mad, I laughed my butt off I had totally unwittingly become both the King and the little girl that refused to drink from the well....truly some of my best comedic work

The truth is that for the most part we're a bunch of guys with little to no real education in metal shaping out in our garages beating on scraps of metal hoping to figure out the "Secrets to metal shaping", there are precious little in the way of facts and even fewer people that could pass any test that would qualify them as an expert.

The real "Ugly truth" about supposed Experts is that in most subjects there exist very few, lucky for them there are even less people qualified to judge them...you don't believe me?

Ask Bernie Madoff

Before you "declare" someone an Expert ask yourself "what qualifies you to make such a claim?"

Don't drink the Cool Aid!

Your King

[Bill Gibson]

I'm not taking sides here.....At least not yet..... I hope everyone continues to post their experiences and ideas here. Think about this though.... If one has 40 years of experience and is an "expert", then why do they need to be here? Don't jump to conclusions here about what I'm saying... I'm not bashing anyone, or saying anyone shouldn't be here..... We need all of the experience and all of the insights that anyone can offer.
An old boss of mine used to say that an "ex-spirt is just a has been drip". It took me long time to figure out the depths of what that meant.....
Sometimes people with a lot of experience get stuck doing things a certain way and are reluctant to try something new. So they cease to learn. Some even get curmudgeonly and insist that their way is the only way, and they aren't shy about telling others how wrong they are.
Other craftsmen reach a point where they are called Masters, and yet they realize that they will never truly master their trade because there will always be something new to learn.
I grew up in metal working. (not metalshaping) My dad was a metal fabricator and worked his way to being a supervisor of the fabrication shops at several high tech (for the day) companies. He worked on the Nautilus Submarine, and on several Gemini and Apollo space craft. Our garage at home was well equipped to say the least... We had a Hobart TIG welder at home in 1960..... I did my first aluminum weld on that machine when I was 9 years old in 1962....I had a great teacher and I've probably welded more different types of material than 90% of welders. I have a lot of experience, but I don't consider myself an expert. I obviously grew up (or at least got older) and followed in my fathers footsteps. I got a job doing metal work for the National Park Service. A lot of that work was restoration of historic artifacts, and I learned from some fantastic craftsmen who had been there for years before I went to work there. I could tell you of the projects that I worked on and dazzle you with stories of my experiences there...but it really doesn't matter.....
I got into Metalshaping in 1984 and started my part time business that year. I ran that while also working the regular job. I retired from the Park Service in 2007, and still have my businesss as a part time endeavor.
I have a lot of experience, but i don't consider myself an expert. After all these years and all my experience I learn something new everyday. And when I stop learning I may as well be dead....
So back to my question.... Why are we here? I hope we are all here to share knowledge and to learn something new, and to have fun while we are doing it.... because if we aren't having fun, we are doing it wrong. Why do something if you don't enjoy it?
So when we post we should try not to suck the joy out of the craft.
We should share our experience and knowledge without degrading others. We should listen to new or seemingly naive ideas and consider them carefully before we condemn them. Otherwise we will not advance.
How many times have you been so deep into a project and you are set on doing it a certain way, when someone behind you, several feet away says, "what about doing it this way" and you step back and realize there is a better way, and the way you have always done it might not be the best way in this particular circumstance.....
So now as Anders said in a post.... "the written word is the worst form of communication"..... unfortunately that is the best we have here on this forum... so be careful with the words, and also read them over several times.... both before you send them, and when you first see them... Consider every possibility and try to see the best meaning.
I have more to think about.... about how different people learn and what they learn and how it translates to what they are capable of doing.....
But this post is getting too long already.....
But I leave you with a Quote that is generally credited to Mark Twain....
"How smart or how dumb you are has a lot to do with where you are standing at the time"......
So as Captain Kirk is trying to say ( I think) ......Consider where the other guy is coming from.....then choose to accept it or to question it, but think long and hard before rejecting it or ridiculing it....

[bobadame]

[QUOTE=captainkirk;95356]First off I'm going to "Try my best" to state my goal for this post right up front so hopefully it will "Cut Down" on the confusion.

Goal: To "DISCUSS" the differences in peoples goals as relates to the subject of metal shaping.
(If your opposed to this goal please press the "Back button on your computer Now.)


Why don't we just do that? Ok then, why am I doing this? The real answer to this question is revealing.

In a recent youtube video I heard myself say "I wanted to exercise so of course I had to build a machine". This is probably why I'm here. I enjoy building things, and at least in my brain, what could be better than building things to build other things? So, I've spent the last few years, a lot of money and a lot of energy buying, building, repairing , modifying and moving equipment. During the last 30 years I've also built 3 shops each about twice as big as the last. I think I'm finally done. All the machines are in place, they all work and I know where (almost) everything is. I have about a dozen tape measures.

A couple of evenings ago I picked up a piece of sheet metal and started to make a motorcycle tank side to hang on the wall. I used my harbor freight open throat shear to cut it out, then I deburred the edges with my sander, then I banged on it with my helve hammer, then I planished it a bit with my e-wheel. All the machines worked beautifully. Now we'll see if I really want to shape sheet metal.