The Bugatti Build Project - a design exercise

[tdoty]

The Bugatti Build Project - a design exercise.

As a result of a recent thread, this excercise has developed.

The Rules as defined by "the creator", Wray Schelin.

ONE-- This build will be done in a fully equipped shop including CNC machining capabilities (if you are in need of a tool all you need do is ask for it and it appears). The shop is provided by the Discovery channel it was designed by them as an ideal filming environment to film the progress of the build. The shop's tool cost is not a part of the budget and not your worry.

TWO -- one person is selected to build this car he or she has a $250000.00 budget to get the job done. If you do an outstanding job you will be offered a contract to "star" in a regular series building one off cars. You can hire any help you might need for the shop requirements plus you can subcontract with any outside help. All help has to paid out of the $250000.00 budget. You have one year to build the car.

The Sultan of Brunei has agreed to purchase the car for $250000.00 and he will take the car home to Brunei with him. The car will not have to meet US crash, fuel, or any other standards. Liability is being wavied by the Sultan after he has a team of engineers inspect the car after the build. The Sultan has a lot of faith in you to get the job done right.

Remember YOU is YOU. How would YOU do it exactly step by step starting at step A working to step B all the way to step Z.

This is not a group build project this is YOU as project manager of a once in a lifetime opportunity.

The car is the Retro Bugatti design that is in two of the previous posts in this thread. I put up several pictures and Anders has put up a few more. Remember this thread will be long so you have to back up to the earlier pages to make sure you did not miss anythng.

The Retro Bugatti has been specifically picked as the car the Sultan wants. He wants the car to fit him, he's 5' 8" tall and weighs 150lbs. He also wants the car to accomodate one of his wives who is 5' 11" he didn't say her weight but she is slender. He wants the car to have 300 plus HP and he will use the car as a casual driver around his Kingdom. He is not expecting super high performance in handling or speed he just wants the car to be fun and comfortable to drive . He does not want the finished project to deviate too much from the drawings. He understands some dimensions will need tweaking but he does not want a finished project that is qute different from the drawings.

Remember also this is just an exercise devised so that we can tap our collective knowledge. If in the future we do choose to build a MetalMeet group project car we will all be on the same page or at least in the same book. We will all learn from this exercise. Scratchbuilding is where the fun and challenge is and it is the freedom that the craft of sheetmetal shaping offers. Learning about the tools and how to work metal are the elementry facets of this craft. How to scratch build using both traditional methods and today's CAD tools are where the real challenge lies. It is also something that we should all aspire to accomplish.

We will all have different perpectives, it is from this multi perspective input we will learn what we don't know.


And, here are some pics of the Retro Bugatti concept from PurSang:







Come up with a plan for the chassis, a plan to get the body from a concept to a metal reality, etc. Not just a parts list, but more specifically "This is step #1, this is step #2 " ....... etc.

How would you do it?

Tim D.

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Tim,

OK, this new thread works. I hope we can leave behind all of the objections and concentrate on building the Sultan's Retro Bugatti.

What we need now are just the first steps that must be taken.

[tdoty]

I'll start here, at least with an outline - more will come later.

Step #1 is getting the design work finished to make the car a reality. Approaching PurSang for some support would be the obvious first step. If they weren't interested, bringing in a "name" designer - Thom Taylor being my first choice - to work out any details not in the available drawings as well as an Engineering/Design firm to do the CAD work might be a logical choice . This part of the process could easily eat up $10,000 of the budget or more. However, the basics of the chassis, body, interior, suspension and steering should be worked out by this point.

Full size plots of the CAD data would be used for making the patterns for the wireframe buck (or a CNC Plasma cut sheetmetal buck for a starting point), over which a cardboard/bondo and /or clay model would be done to get the look just right, both in size and proportion.

Concurrently, the chassis build could be started. Since blasting full speed along a curvy mountain road isn't the primary purpose of this vehicle, a Kugel independent front:


and rear suspension:

attached to a 2x3 tubular frame (with integrated roll cage/reinforcements) would be the basis for a decent cruiser that ought to be able to hold it's own in terms of handling too. Big Baer brakes and "standard" Kugel steering make up the rest of the basic chassis system.

Meanwhile, a GM LS-1 V-8 crate engine would be prepped for the project.



Nothing fancy, since 300hp is the goal . I know I started out talking about LS6 power, but the production LS1 fits the 300 hp bill just fine. Back it up with a 6-speed manual. Rock solid and durable is the key here. A Chevy Vortec I-6 might be more fitting for the theme of the car and the width as well, but the V-8 is proven at the desired power point. Besides, who would take care of the development work on the 6?

Once the model is finished, the Sultan's approval would be needed to proceed - it is his car after all. If the Sultan approves of the basic look at this time, work would begin on making a buck to build the body.

A wireform/Bondo buck like Randy Ferguson demonstrated last month would be a good staring point, though maybe not "TV elegant" . Flexible shape patterns would also be taken from the model.

With the completed frame in the shop, the actual build gets going, and here's where it gets fuzzy . I can plan with the best of them, coordinating a build up might be different .

The core of the body, the passenger compartment, would be the first step. Everything else builds around it, and the interior could be roughly fitted to the space while the rest of the body is being completed. Where to start? Cowl? Rocker panels up? Roof?

From here, it's almost all metalshaping for a few months. Lots of .063" aluminum sheet and time on the e-wheel.

Okay, I've way oversimplified the process of getting the car to this point. A fair amount of work was outsourced to get this far, due mostly to time constraints.

To be continued......................................... ................

Tim D.

[Wray Schelin]

I hope we can outline some of the first steps that would be needed to make this project happen.

Neal has pionted out you would need to first make sure that the car ( the retro Bugatti Design from Pur Sang in Argentina) fits the Sultan. Since the Sultan is paying the tab that makes sense.

Tim and several others have initially opted to choose a donor chassis from a new Corvette ( can anyone find a picture of a new Corvette chassis? )

They will see if the chassis can be made to fit the body design ( Remember the Sultan only wants the Bugatti design tweaked and not reworked radically to make things fit).

Tim metioned expenditures for several items which leads us to the requirement of drawing up a budget plan so we have some idea where we will need to spend the money.

We have $250000.00 total to spend to make this project a reality. We need to know how much to spend on: ( note Discovery channel will pay you a salary while you are doing this build)


The chassis, the engine/transmission, the electronics, the tire/wheels, the interior , the wiring, the chrome, glass, engine ancillaries, paint, general materials ( metal, hardware, etc.) $________

Internal shop help cost $________

External shop help cost $________

There are two ways to do this project- the traditional way and the new way using CAD - I hope we can shed light on both ways during this exercise.

What are the first steps required if you were doing this project the traditional way?

What are the first steps required if you choose to use the modern methods with CAD ?

Both methods are valid and hopefully we can fully develop some universal formats that would help guide us so we can do a real project of this complexity in the future.

Please don't paint with a broadbrush here, we need details of the exact steps you would take. If you would hire outside help to do these steps what do you think they would do?

[Mike Rouse]

A project of this sort can be diviede up into a couple of phases.
First the Concept stage
In this phase the design data must be gathered and defined. Materials of construction, mechanical components including drive train tires brakes must be defined.
The elements of this phase can be broken down by system on the car and a scope definition written for each element will complete the scope.
Second the Design development stage
Here the different elements of the car will be drawn and defined on paper or cad. This is where the calculations for the different components must be done. Strength of materials of consturction used must be calculated. Electrical requirements must be defined.
Third is the estimating phase
All elements of the car must be cost out. The cost of the materials and the labor manhours to fab and install the elements must be defined. This cost estimate must be broken down into the elements of the car. The cost must be within budget. This will give a starting point to start ordering materials and parts.

Fourth is the Scheduling phase
Here the cost estimate is used to schedule the work defined in the most time efficient manner. There may be some long delivery items that need to be ordered early in the project. The schedule will be used to keep the work flowing. The schedule must show the end date to complete the project. Daily updates of the schedule are needed.
Fifth is the build phase
Here the materials are ordered and work begins. Follow the schedule and keep the work within the budget.
Sixth is the Check out and turnoveer phase
The car will be put into operation and the elements will be checked to be sure they meet the original requirements.
Next give the keys to the owner and get the money.

Note The elements of a car need to be defined by systems like tires and rims , Brakes, Chassis, Engine, Transmission,
ETC.....
Breaking a large project up into its elements makes the job a whole lot easier.
Mike.....

[Bambi]

Should I call Foul...In Wrays last post we see QUOTE: (Remember the Sultan only wants the Bugatti design tweaked and not reworked radically to make things fit).
To me this is a change of Rules.
There is no Original Car to go by, No actual dimensions, if there is Only Wray knows for sure. This in itself could cancel out many applications. Anders posted some stuff in the other thing that leads one to believe that the dimensions are similar or the same as a XJ 6 Jaguar and has posted dimensions. With his frame rail dimensions, one could actually install a Real Chrysler Hemi or Big Block Chevy.
This car is a 30's era vehicle, Anyone that has worked on some of these old vehicles knows they are very crudely made. Left side parts are many times not even a good reverse match to the right side. Frame rails were very simple, there was lots of wood used and aluminum or steel was formed over same.
This car appears to use many rivets to hold things together. Fenders to main body, the roof hence the mohawk rail. In looking at a few other Bugattis of the ear and not in these renditions the fender appear to have the mohawk look with two fender halves riveted together. These sketches show more of a beaded fender. Even that can be questioned to interpretation.
Now many of us have already figured into the Corvette scheme of things, but since I see a wrench being tossed at us, it makes me believe we are stuck with similar sized wheels and tires and possibly the use of Wire Wheels. Even with modern technology and materials Wire Wheels are a disaster.
Using Corvette sized wheels and tires would mandate quite a bit of work of the fenders, more bulbous and less MC type.
The mohawk rails as I call them were used by Bugatti, cuz they lacked the tools, technology to do it differently, they used what they had for that era, same with rivets and the wheels and tires.
Are we building an antique or a modern car? Or a modernized antique. Looking at a 1995 Chrysler Atlantic Concept Car, they modernized a similar vehicle and went with todays stuff. They took two 4 cyl Neon motors and freight trained them.
When this project started, Wray said it was YOU were chosen to build a car, you had $250,000 to play with, here is some sketches, you have a Free hand do what you want. Since there is no original car to get specs from, it becomes my interpretation of the rules, which still ain't in stone. Using todays technology, the old farm tires and wheels are gone. The rivets are gone, used only for accent.
There would be no need for CAD if we are building an old farm buggy to be period correct.
My reasoning for using a Vette was simple, people of many sizes can fit in a Vette, they have plenty of usable power, lots of good proven and usable parts. The new ones have the motor in the front as usual, but use a trans axle, leaving plenty of space for a more roomy interior. Using even the tub assembly, they so called frame rails enclosed the driver and passenger and have plenty of room underneath. I seriously doubt one could use the tub from any of the later model Vettes. Suspension components maybe, if fenders are allowed to be highly modified, we are not using 6 inch wide tire here.
So I propose we take a week off from this project, and let Wray and whomever else he has on his team, to firm up the Rules. Once the rules are in place then we can play.

Bambi

[Gene_Olson]

Bambi,

What fun would that be?

Haven't you ever dealt with a heavy client before?

They WANT, and they may have a dream but they don't see hard edges in the dream.
Helping them to see where edges are is part of the process.

As I see it the biggest disadvantage the rest of you have is that the Sultan of Sturbridge knows too much. He's going to have to play dumb and let you help define the project.

G

[anders nørgaard]

Gene,

You're right about the sultan of Sturbridge and the rest of us!! He wants us to "spin" our brains <LOL>

Wray (and the rest of you) I don't think that the Vette frame will do for our project. The side rails are WAY to wide to fit the Bugatti body panels!


Guess we'll have to make our own frame from 2x3, as Tim suggested earlier!
(more pics of the C6 in the gallery)

[Boogiemanz1]

Originally Posted by tdoty

I'll start here, at least with an outline - more will come later.

Step #1 is getting the design work finished to make the car a reality. Approaching PurSang for some support would be the obvious first step. If they weren't interested, bringing in a "name" designer - Thom Taylor being my first choice - to work out any details not in the available drawings as well as an Engineering/Design firm to do the CAD work might be a logical choice . This part of the process could easily eat up $10,000 of the budget or more. However, the basics of the chassis, body, interior, suspension and steering should be worked out by this point.

Full size plots of the CAD data would be used for making the patterns for the wireframe buck (or a CNC Plasma cut sheetmetal buck for a starting point), over which a cardboard/bondo and /or clay model would be done to get the look just right, both in size and proportion.

Concurrently, the chassis build could be started. Since blasting full speed along a curvy mountain road isn't the primary purpose of this vehicle, a Kugel independent front:


and rear suspension:

attached to a 2x3 tubular frame (with integrated roll cage/reinforcements) would be the basis for a decent cruiser that ought to be able to hold it's own in terms of handling too. Big Baer brakes and "standard" Kugel steering make up the rest of the basic chassis system.

Meanwhile, a GM LS-1 V-8 crate engine would be prepped for the project.



Nothing fancy, since 300hp is the goal . I know I started out talking about LS6 power, but the production LS1 fits the 300 hp bill just fine. Back it up with a 6-speed manual. Rock solid and durable is the key here. A Chevy Vortec I-6 might be more fitting for the theme of the car and the width as well, but the V-8 is proven at the desired power point. Besides, who would take care of the development work on the 6?

Once the model is finished, the Sultan's approval would be needed to proceed - it is his car after all. If the Sultan approves of the basic look at this time, work would begin on making a buck to build the body.

A wireform/Bondo buck like Randy Ferguson demonstrated last month would be a good staring point, though maybe not "TV elegant" . Flexible shape patterns would also be taken from the model.

With the completed frame in the shop, the actual build gets going, and here's where it gets fuzzy . I can plan with the best of them, coordinating a build up might be different .

The core of the body, the passenger compartment, would be the first step. Everything else builds around it, and the interior could be roughly fitted to the space while the rest of the body is being completed. Where to start? Cowl? Rocker panels up? Roof?

From here, it's almost all metalshaping for a few months. Lots of .063" aluminum sheet and time on the e-wheel.

Okay, I've way oversimplified the process of getting the car to this point. A fair amount of work was outsourced to get this far, due mostly to time constraints.

To be continued......................................... ................

Tim D.

Although we have gotten some suggestions, There has been nothing that we can get dimensions from.

We need something exotic looking, dependable, and readily available. A suspension system that will fit into our body, and look right with a tubular designed frame.

We need a powerplant that will push this mess around dependably without having to rebuild it. If a modern small block will fit, practically anything else could be adapted.

We need to design a frame so we can build a body.
This is our objective! I'm assuming that once a frame is done in solidworks it could be modified for different suspensions, and different engines. Reading back through this thread the 3rd post holds an easy answer. I am going to try to compile the specs for this suspension and the dimensions for this motor.

If you have a suggestion for different engines or suspensions, get pictures and dimensions needed to build a chassis with it and submit it quickly.

Lets take some positive steps toward a chassis.....john

[mrredwine]

Hello to all..
There is a long time that i don´t address to the group, simply because the building of my car goes slowly, and the opics i have may be not menainful to show.I´m finishing the wireform and start the body probably next month.Interesting project to talk about.(Bugatti inspired car)
.
Looking the drawings at the begining,concerning the chasis, seems that is asking for a bird cage type!The doors bottom are enough high to put a tube.Long hood to install diagonals and a lean upper tube, thin wall, and good section.I discard all of you have a tig or a mig to weld thin wall.(i don´t have, so i used 2mm wall tubes, with a common stick welder!)
Having the freedom to use anything, (250.00!!!), why don´t use a real independiente ,a arms , with all sort of freedom to tune it in any way!The rear and front suspensions showed,seems to be fixed., or with not many chances to play with them.How to change camber and caster, and fundamentally toe in/out!..at the rear!?Particlarly the rear one.seems very poor.
Engine..
Why a v8?
A big BMW!...Joy!:-)..Fun..Music!.nice to see!..also to fill the space into a so long hood.
Hugs to all.
Mr RedWine
Argentina.