Cyclecars - What is a cyclecar?

[Richard K]

What is a cyclecar?
Are they motorized? Where is engine?
Brakes, what kind?
Are there any aggreed upon rules for scale or wheelbase or weight?

What is the history? who started this?

Thanks for any info.

CycleCARS developed early in automotive history..teens and 20's..and are roughly described as cars which use motorcycle parts as their principal constituents. The most familiar to us might be the Morgan 3 wheeler, but Amilcar and many others come to mind. They were very light and spindly affairs with skinny tires and lots of negative camber. When the Austin 7 more or less became the peoples car the cyclecars died out but then arose the Brit tradtion of "SPECIALS" such as John Boltons "Bloody Mary". One of his specials I believe featured, count 'em 4, 1000cc J.A.P V twins all lashed together with chains?These could be any size, including at least one moderately successful GP car, but tended to favor the cycleparts approach and light weight. Many had minimal bodies or no bodies at all. from these cars sprang the FIII 500cc racecars and the Cooper Norton which surely is the granddaddy of all formula cars since.

CycleKARTS are the sort of low key, tongue in cheek revival of both of these tradtions by a guy named Pete Stevenson in Monterery CA. You might have caught them in Road and Track an April or so ago. Stevenson is a plywood fanatic and has been for decades and has come up with hundreds of very whimsical designs for all sorts of neat stuff including a lot of boats. He came up with the cycleKart idea as a low cost, low skill simple to build in your driveway fun sort of car and except for a couple of frame rails is mostly wood and fiberglass.

Best to read it from the souce at
http://www.stevproj.com/Carz/CycleKart.html

At the same time I had been casting around for a sort of 'manequin' for metalshapers projects which would on one hand be possible by beginners as well as challenging for experts...and which could be completed sometime during ones lifetime. These little cars were perfect and I got about 20 people from metalshapers and others outside the group involved, many of whom are on the metalshaping list. Tony, Skip Pipes, Tom Lipton etc.

As we began to build and develop them it became clear that although it has great advantages for an amateur builder without metal skills, many in our group would not be satisfied with a plywood box and egineering modifications began to take place and the approaches to the body changed too. Today, although everyone has so far held to the basic size, weight and power formula this second generation of cars are different enough that we have begun to split away from the Stevenson group and call them a varieety of things like "Motocars" or Tom calls them "Formula QT" etc. However the original cars are still flourishing and being built both in our group and in the Stevensons.

Tom Lipton answered some of these questions earlier, so, I will just cut and paste some of it here.
Monday, September 02, 2002

QT Cars Construction formula.

The QT cars which borrow the same formula as the original Cyclekarts should be built to the same specifications or formula in the interest of good sportsmanship. Cars should conform as best they can to the formula . Variations of more than 6% on any specification should be avoided.

These specifications allows these cars to occupy the same event in a safe manner without any large performance variations. This makes the skill of the driver the most important factor in efficient driving.

Wheelbase,
Measured from front axel centerline to rear axel centerline. 66 inches maximum.

Track width front and rear.
38 inches measured from the centerline of the tire. In the case of the front the measurement is taken at the centerline of the front wheel hub.

Engine displacement and Horsepower.
6.5 HP and 200cc displacement. Honda GX200QX is the recommended engine. No engine modifications are allowed. Normal pump gasoline is specified.

Gear ratio.
Power is transmitted through a Comet TAV30 Torque converter. Final reduction is chain drive with a 10/72 sprocket ratio. Size #40 chain is recommended.

Final wheel drive.
One rear wheel driven only. The right rear is the normal drive wheel. The left rear is Idle only. All braking and driving forces must go through one wheel only. No front brakes allowed

Wheels
17 inch diameter wheels are specified. Tire size should fall within 2.50 to 3.50 width The 6% tolerance allows for a plus or minus one inch tire diameter difference to allow different styling options for the builders.

Weight
Maximum weight of 250 Lbs. No minimum weight is specified.

Maximum cost.
$1800 Dollars in 2002 Dollars.
©2002 Tom Lipton

Saturday, August 31, 2002
What is a QT car? To answer that question it might make more sense to first tell you what a QT car is not.

QT cars are not race cars. They may look like race cars and some of the people that want to drive them are race car drivers but they most certainly are not race cars. The idea behind the QT is not the spirit of competition but more accurately the spirit of building. QT cars are built following a simple design formula that keeps all the cars on an even performance field. You will have to outfox your opponent rather that out spend or out power them. Part of the fun is that each car is put together slightly differently according to the tools and skills available to the builder.

QT cars are not toys. These cars are adult level fun. That does not meant that children are excluded, only that there is an adult level of appreciation for the design and construction details of these cars.

Some of the more common questions

What does QT stand for?

QT stands for Quality Time. The name is meant to separate these cars from the go-kart world. They use some of the same parts but they are distinctly different from go-karts. QT cars are built with a quality visual appeal as with full sized cars but not found in go-karts. The appeal of full sized custom car building without the high dollar and time outlay associated with full sized cars.

How do I get one?

Right now you have to build one. Currently nobody sells completed cars. As they catch on that may change. There will be basic plans available soon to assist the folks that want some help with the design details. It’s the American dream only smaller.

How many cars are there?

There are people building them all over the country. They tend to hatch in little hives of two to four cars. They are quite contagious when driven.

What does it cost to build one?

Part of the basic construction formula limits the out of pocket cash expenditure. There is no limit on the time you can spend building one only how much money. A QT car should cost $1800 or less to build in 2002 dollars.

Where do you drive them?

Some of the people building them have property suitable for driving these cars and hosting sporting events. A local go kart track would be a place you could drive one. They are the most fun on a smooth dirt track with a few varied types of turns. Block parties are another venue that has been discussed. A group in a neighborhood could block the streets off and set up a road course to drive on. A decent track can be set up almost in any decent sized backyard. The size of the track is not the limiting fun factor.

What do you do with them when there done?

Drive them hopefully. Part of the fun is getting together with other people that are building these cars and discussing building techniques and details. QT car builders are all very generous about test drives and it’s a lot of fun to try out other builders cars to see the differences.

Are they safe to drive?

Depends on how you drive them. They can be dangerous like all vehicles in the wrong hands. They are relatively slow compared to racing go-karts.

What if I cant weld. Can I still build one?

There are building methods that limit the amount of welding to a little more than six inches of weld. These methods rely on woodworking skills for the strength needed for the car. Almost everybody can find a local guy that can do a few inches of weld for them at a nominal charge. Some builders have literally put these together in there driveways with a cordless drill and a skill saw.

How fast do they go?

A better question is how fun are they. If you want speed you would be better off with a good late model motorcycle or a shifter go-kart.

Where can I buy parts to build one.

Most of the basic components are borrowed from the go-kart guys. There are many dealers for these parts so finding one close to home should not be a problem. The parts can be ordered over the Internet also. As part of the plans that will be available soon there is a complete purchased parts list.

Are they street legal?

No. They were never intended to be driven on public roadways. There small size would make them almost invisible to full sized cars.
©2002 Tom Lipton
______

Already the bar is being raised and it is hard to say where these cars will wind up, or what will spring from them. Clearly the sky's the limit...To see what is happening in the rest of the world wrt this sort of car have a look at the Areil Atom at

http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/

Or the Formula Hayabusa

For now though we are just feeling our way along, getting the first and second generation cars built and thinking about the third...

Questions welcome.
Bill Spear

[Richard K]

What is a cyclecar?
Are they motorized? Where is engine?
Brakes, what kind?
Are there any aggreed upon rules for scale or wheelbase or weight?

What is the history? who started this?

Thanks for any info.

CycleCARS developed early in automotive history..teens and 20's..and are roughly described as cars which use motorcycle parts as their principal constituents. The most familiar to us might be the Morgan 3 wheeler, but Amilcar and many others come to mind. They were very light and spindly affairs with skinny tires and lots of negative camber. When the Austin 7 more or less became the peoples car the cyclecars died out but then arose the Brit tradtion of "SPECIALS" such as John Boltons "Bloody Mary". One of his specials I believe featured, count 'em 4, 1000cc J.A.P V twins all lashed together with chains?These could be any size, including at least one moderately successful GP car, but tended to favor the cycleparts approach and light weight. Many had minimal bodies or no bodies at all. from these cars sprang the FIII 500cc racecars and the Cooper Norton which surely is the granddaddy of all formula cars since.

CycleKARTS are the sort of low key, tongue in cheek revival of both of these tradtions by a guy named Pete Stevenson in Monterery CA. You might have caught them in Road and Track an April or so ago. Stevenson is a plywood fanatic and has been for decades and has come up with hundreds of very whimsical designs for all sorts of neat stuff including a lot of boats. He came up with the cycleKart idea as a low cost, low skill simple to build in your driveway fun sort of car and except for a couple of frame rails is mostly wood and fiberglass.

Best to read it from the souce at
http://www.stevproj.com/Carz/CycleKart.html

At the same time I had been casting around for a sort of 'manequin' for metalshapers projects which would on one hand be possible by beginners as well as challenging for experts...and which could be completed sometime during ones lifetime. These little cars were perfect and I got about 20 people from metalshapers and others outside the group involved, many of whom are on the metalshaping list. Tony, Skip Pipes, Tom Lipton etc.

As we began to build and develop them it became clear that although it has great advantages for an amateur builder without metal skills, many in our group would not be satisfied with a plywood box and egineering modifications began to take place and the approaches to the body changed too. Today, although everyone has so far held to the basic size, weight and power formula this second generation of cars are different enough that we have begun to split away from the Stevenson group and call them a varieety of things like "Motocars" or Tom calls them "Formula QT" etc. However the original cars are still flourishing and being built both in our group and in the Stevensons.

Tom Lipton answered some of these questions earlier, so, I will just cut and paste some of it here.
Monday, September 02, 2002

QT Cars Construction formula.

The QT cars which borrow the same formula as the original Cyclekarts should be built to the same specifications or formula in the interest of good sportsmanship. Cars should conform as best they can to the formula . Variations of more than 6% on any specification should be avoided.

These specifications allows these cars to occupy the same event in a safe manner without any large performance variations. This makes the skill of the driver the most important factor in efficient driving.

Wheelbase,
Measured from front axel centerline to rear axel centerline. 66 inches maximum.

Track width front and rear.
38 inches measured from the centerline of the tire. In the case of the front the measurement is taken at the centerline of the front wheel hub.

Engine displacement and Horsepower.
6.5 HP and 200cc displacement. Honda GX200QX is the recommended engine. No engine modifications are allowed. Normal pump gasoline is specified.

Gear ratio.
Power is transmitted through a Comet TAV30 Torque converter. Final reduction is chain drive with a 10/72 sprocket ratio. Size #40 chain is recommended.

Final wheel drive.
One rear wheel driven only. The right rear is the normal drive wheel. The left rear is Idle only. All braking and driving forces must go through one wheel only. No front brakes allowed

Wheels
17 inch diameter wheels are specified. Tire size should fall within 2.50 to 3.50 width The 6% tolerance allows for a plus or minus one inch tire diameter difference to allow different styling options for the builders.

Weight
Maximum weight of 250 Lbs. No minimum weight is specified.

Maximum cost.
$1800 Dollars in 2002 Dollars.
©2002 Tom Lipton

Saturday, August 31, 2002
What is a QT car? To answer that question it might make more sense to first tell you what a QT car is not.

QT cars are not race cars. They may look like race cars and some of the people that want to drive them are race car drivers but they most certainly are not race cars. The idea behind the QT is not the spirit of competition but more accurately the spirit of building. QT cars are built following a simple design formula that keeps all the cars on an even performance field. You will have to outfox your opponent rather that out spend or out power them. Part of the fun is that each car is put together slightly differently according to the tools and skills available to the builder.

QT cars are not toys. These cars are adult level fun. That does not meant that children are excluded, only that there is an adult level of appreciation for the design and construction details of these cars.

Some of the more common questions

What does QT stand for?

QT stands for Quality Time. The name is meant to separate these cars from the go-kart world. They use some of the same parts but they are distinctly different from go-karts. QT cars are built with a quality visual appeal as with full sized cars but not found in go-karts. The appeal of full sized custom car building without the high dollar and time outlay associated with full sized cars.

How do I get one?

Right now you have to build one. Currently nobody sells completed cars. As they catch on that may change. There will be basic plans available soon to assist the folks that want some help with the design details. It’s the American dream only smaller.

How many cars are there?

There are people building them all over the country. They tend to hatch in little hives of two to four cars. They are quite contagious when driven.

What does it cost to build one?

Part of the basic construction formula limits the out of pocket cash expenditure. There is no limit on the time you can spend building one only how much money. A QT car should cost $1800 or less to build in 2002 dollars.

Where do you drive them?

Some of the people building them have property suitable for driving these cars and hosting sporting events. A local go kart track would be a place you could drive one. They are the most fun on a smooth dirt track with a few varied types of turns. Block parties are another venue that has been discussed. A group in a neighborhood could block the streets off and set up a road course to drive on. A decent track can be set up almost in any decent sized backyard. The size of the track is not the limiting fun factor.

What do you do with them when there done?

Drive them hopefully. Part of the fun is getting together with other people that are building these cars and discussing building techniques and details. QT car builders are all very generous about test drives and it’s a lot of fun to try out other builders cars to see the differences.

Are they safe to drive?

Depends on how you drive them. They can be dangerous like all vehicles in the wrong hands. They are relatively slow compared to racing go-karts.

What if I cant weld. Can I still build one?

There are building methods that limit the amount of welding to a little more than six inches of weld. These methods rely on woodworking skills for the strength needed for the car. Almost everybody can find a local guy that can do a few inches of weld for them at a nominal charge. Some builders have literally put these together in there driveways with a cordless drill and a skill saw.

How fast do they go?

A better question is how fun are they. If you want speed you would be better off with a good late model motorcycle or a shifter go-kart.

Where can I buy parts to build one.

Most of the basic components are borrowed from the go-kart guys. There are many dealers for these parts so finding one close to home should not be a problem. The parts can be ordered over the Internet also. As part of the plans that will be available soon there is a complete purchased parts list.

Are they street legal?

No. They were never intended to be driven on public roadways. There small size would make them almost invisible to full sized cars.
©2002 Tom Lipton
______

Already the bar is being raised and it is hard to say where these cars will wind up, or what will spring from them. Clearly the sky's the limit...To see what is happening in the rest of the world wrt this sort of car have a look at the Areil Atom at

http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/

Or the Formula Hayabusa

For now though we are just feeling our way along, getting the first and second generation cars built and thinking about the third...

Questions welcome.
Bill Spear

[Tinman]

I love-em and I am going to build one. The other night I couldn't sleep thinking about my concept of it. I'm starting Monday. Where do I get the front springs? Will a cross leaf work or is it up to the indevidual. Thanks for all the information.
Tinman

Gosh, I hope you do build one..it would be a beauty I'm sure...I was just fiddling around yesterday with some frame rails on the welding table thinking about another one.

Tom Lipton suggests starting with the front suspension, but, it's really a matter of how you work...

The 'standard' spring solution is to use elliptic buggy seat springs (you get enough for two semi eliptic cars). We have been getting from a guy in Oklahoma, but I bet there are some Amish folk in your area that have a wider selection..keep us posted.

The fore and aft arrangement 'looks the part', giving you those nice projecting dead irons...and I have to say, looks are half the fun on these things. Except for entry and exit, you could almost make a drivable scale model if that was your bent. ...However, let's say you were going to do an Austin Seven replica...those springs go across which would work fine, but itw will definitely give a different look. I had the long leaf of a real American Austin and it looked to me like it would fit fine. To behonest, a REAL Austin isn't a whole lot bigger than a cyclekart (75"wh instead of 66"). I suppose you could build one with quarter elliptics too...a standard practice in days of old and lots of fun to drive because the wheelbase keeps changing :~)...Lipton also threatened one time to build one with torsion bars!

I have been toying with the idea of a Cooper FIII "tribute" replica (someday)..actual size, but, those are even closer to Cyclekart size..they aren't quite the standard "era" for cyclekarts, but I think one could be built that would look very neat...I would go to 16 or even 15 inch wheels... for a newer car like that, but aesthetics are really affected by the tires...I mention it because these were suspended with transverse Fiat Topolino 500 springs front and rear..they sprung double A arms from the top just as coil springs do today from the bottom.

The originators of the cars do not like any sort of independent suspension, or more than one wheel brake or drive..however, we metal folk have advanced the breed a good deal. Todd Manoff for instance has a differnetial and two disk brakes in his second Bugatti Brecia and is very happy with it. It is really again just a question of your attitude and what you want as a result.

Be glad to answer any questions...please keep me posted on your progress. An associate of Tom L, Mike Rupp is making some good progress on his "Miller 91" and is bringing it up in a few weeks for a run..I'll get some pictures if I can figure out how to post them w/o bombiing the site :~)
Bill

[Tinman]

Frame rail material came in yesterday! But I already started my project with the grill. After surfing the net for a couple days I chose to make mine like an old sprint car from the 20's and 30's. I feel that the grill is the most important part of the projects character. Unless there are objections. Well I started making the grill, looks pretty cool. So if I can figure out how to attach it to this forum I will. But you can see it in my gallery.

[Richard K]

Tinman,

Pull up a bucket and get a shot of you sitting behind that grill.
You're almost done.

Really, the shell looks nice. Keep us posted.

[Tinman]

My wife ran the bender for the frame rails of my cyclekart




What do you think?

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Tinman,


Wow, you don't waste any time,bink,bink and you're sitting in the chassis dreaming about the first test drive down the driveway.



Great looking grille, and I agree that the grille is a vital component of the look that you want to achieve.


Tom Lipton sent me a CD of a movie he made last year of him and a friend zooming around in their cyclecar chassis ( he didn't wait to build the body before he started having fun) on a dirt track doing four wheel drifts in the corners. It looks like a lot of fun. I brought the CD to MM03 and showed it to a bunch of the people there.

Please keep sending the pictures of your progress.

Thanks,

Wray

PS : putting the pictures in the forum is quite easy,all you need to do is: use this tag first [img] then paste ( hit the control key and the V key at the same time) the image location ( open up another window into your gallery find the picture, open it up from the thumnail. then right click on it and choose "copy image location", then paste that information) then close with this image tag [/img].

Then use the preview button first, that will let you see whether everything is correct before you post.