Rivetingly interesting question.

[kit]

I have never used rivets before and have to do a job similar to the construction of an air stream.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZmcRtEz9B8&feature=related

What kind of spec and size rivets would you use? Clearly they are large headed but what shank diameter, 3mmm? 5mm?.
I assume they are solid aluminium, and need to be worked onto a doming block held on the otherside of the sheet.
In the clip they are corking the exterior seams with a clear sealant, what kind of product would you use in this day and age?

[Dawai]

Around here, I use 1/8" aluminum pop rivets.. I put clear silicone in the gap, the rivet holds till it dries. If you want it loose, good luck.. it tears before it lets go.

THEY sell a pneumatic pop rivet gun for $50 at that Chinese Harbor Freight store.. it works. Don't put too much air pressure on it tho.

A $20 Air drill just eats the aluminum up.. extra 1/8" bits are a few bucks.. and I break three or more a hour laying the tool down.

I used to make-sell a powdercoat ovens, using construction steel wall studs, aluminum skin, if you want to get fancy on the heated side, hi temp silicone is that red stuff. I used the clear in a caulk gun.

[Overkill]

Check with Aircraft Spruce or McMaster Car. You have a lot of choices when it comes to rivets, it all depends on what you want it to look like when finished.

I have seen pop rivets that have a cover you can put over them to make them look like bucked rivets. Essentially, it looks like a thumbtack that you put in the hole. I believe they came from Aircraft Spruce.

The Airstream video you attached indeed shows bucked rivets with someone inside, backing the rivet up. I don't know the diameter of the rivet they use, or the spacing. Figure on getting a bunch of Cleco's to use as well.

Getting rivets to set perfectly is an art, something you should plan on practicing before doing the finished panel. You'll need a rivet gun, and I've heard that you can rent them from Aircraft Spruce. The size of gun needs to correspond to the size of rivet you settle on. Something else to practice is drilling out rivets without making the rivet hole larger.

Google "setting bucked rivets" you'll find tons of info.

[kit]

Thanks for the replies, the term 'bucked rivets' is very helpfull, not one I new.

So, I want to go for 'Universal' headed rivets, domed, the rivet shank should be three times the combined thickness of the sheets being joined and the rivet should protrude out the other side one and a half times it's shank width before being worked.
I don't have a specific rivet gun I was planning on using an everyday workshop air gun and messing around with the air pressure untill I got good results, what you are saying John sugests more attention to the gun is nesassary, is that right?


Is silicone OK on alli, doesn't it cause long term corrosion problems?

[AndersK]

There are different types of silicone sealers, some can be aggressive.
If in doubt or if you cant find automotive types use marine polyurethane based sealers.
If you plan to paint, keep the silicone far away from the panels... ;)

You can also get clecos and rivet tools from The Yard
http://www.yardstore.com/index.htm

They ship international.

/Anders

[kit]

I plan to use polyurathane sealant on the inside where it won't be on show, the question is what to use on outside where a clear corking compond is needed as there will be no paint finish, in my experiance of seeing other peoples attempts at using building silicone applied to aluminium window frames to seal a building it is frankly c**p, UV degrading, debonding so it can be pulled off in long stringy lengths and leaving behind an etched stain on the alli.
Are there clear (non coloured) automotive or maybe aircraft silicones, or any other form of sealants suitable for application to alli and UV exposure?

[Overkill]

We've tried to clear coat aluminum teardrop trailers and have found issues with many brands. The aluminum gets so hot in the sun, that the clear coat will tend to yellow - even some high end brand names.

POR 15 has a clear coat product I've heard good things about, that I am going to use on my next teardrop. Have also heard some good things about Bulldog Adhesion Promotor.

As for sealants between panels, we've always used automotive seam sealer that stays flexible. Have tried 3M panel adhesive, but don't recommend it - the aluminum tends to grow too much in the sun and it causes problems with the adhesive.

[fmcsteve]

there is a clear double sided glazers tape, as its meant for outside windows its very durable and would help to keep the panels aligned while riveting LINK (http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M-Industrial/Adhesives/Product/Bonding-Tapes/VHB-Tape/)

[hp246]

This may sound dumb, but have you considered powder coating those panels? There are clear powders that have UV protection. Obviously it'd been too expensive to send out, but powder coating individual formed panels using your own custom sized oven would be relatively simple. Ovens can easily be built using recycled oven components, the proper insulation and sheet metal liner.


We've tried to clear coat aluminum teardrop trailers and have found issues with many brands. The aluminum gets so hot in the sun, that the clear coat will tend to yellow - even some high end brand names.

POR 15 has a clear coat product I've heard good things about, that I am going to use on my next teardrop. Have also heard some good things about Bulldog Adhesion Promotor.

As for sealants between panels, we've always used automotive seam sealer that stays flexible. Have tried 3M panel adhesive, but don't recommend it - the aluminum tends to grow too much in the sun and it causes problems with the adhesive.

[Roger J.]

I'm pretty sure that what you are looking for is something like this:
http://www.intropc.com/item-8601-rtv408c-clear-rtv408-industrial-and-construction-silicone.html

From the little but of reading I've done on this stuff, the most important attributes for a sealant being used on bare metal, is that it be non-acetic and natural cure.

I only posted the link above for information purposes. I don't know anything about this site that is selling it. If the link doesn't work, go straight to the C.R. Laurence website and search for RTV408.
www.crlaurence.com

[Pops1532]

Can't help you with the rivet question, but I'd try Ruscoe gutter caulk. Try a very thin bead in the lap.

[kit]

Thanks for all the replies, a lot of good input there.
I can't help wondering if a better way of constructing the whole thing would be to tip a flange on each panel, similar to auto body panels, use seam sealant in the regular way and do all the riveting internally where using pop rivets wouldn't present any problems.

[vilanar]

I have been messing with aluminum sheet and panels for a long time and
my 2 cents is that you put polyuretane bodyglue/sealer between sheets
just enough it oozes out a little bit and then clean it with asetone.
Corrosion is thing that you don´t have to worry about when doing like this.
You don´t need or want any kind of silicones outside of your panels.
We make tank truck doors and panels like that , on door its only glued
not riveted at all , just smooth aluminum. But on hobby vehiles nothing
is cooler than old style riveting.

Ari

[shortbus]

The closest to looking like a 'bucked rivet' is a Cherry Rivet ; http://www.cherryaerospace.com/files/pdf/catalog/CA-1011.pdf

They are used in aircraft and are rated for aerospace use, so they don't come loose. More expensive than pop-rivets, but the seal and don't leak when installed. Plus they have the little domed head that pop-rivets don't. They are installed with a gun just like pop-rivets.

cary

[Overkill]

The Hydroforming thread had a video link. While there I noticed this video on riveting.

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1200014906001

[steve.murphy]

One thing to note is that using an air hammer or zip gun is not the same as a rivet gun. Rivet guns have a better throttle control, and the hammer stroke is longer. It was very difficult to buckgood rivets when I tried it with a good quality air hammer once. No problems with the rivet gun though.

[kit]

Great info, saving me producing a lot of expensive scrap.

[kit]

So, just talking this out, as I said I haven't done any of this as yet, the thing that comes to mind about using sealant between the sheets is the time limit on the sealant curing you then have to get the whole thing up to a finished state.
I've had things get pretty hectic with that just on normal post welding seam sealing, I envisage getting very pushed on a long panel run trying to rivet it, which doesn't sound like an ideal learning curve situation!
As the sealant is in itself structurally strong enough for the bond would it be a turkey of an idea to do say every third rivet with the sealent wet then infill the remaining rivets with it cured?

[fred26t]

I would use just plain rivets like you like you get at Aircraft Spruce or McMaster Car. The Cherry rivets and pop rivets will all leave some type of hole in the center. The Airstream's where built withe just plain rivets. Check out their historical web site. As for powder coat is does not work real well in clear on polished aluminium. When Tom Vogle built project 40 for Street Rodder they tried like 4 times to do the firewall. Just a lot of really bad orange peal. Fred26T

[kit]

Some months on, it proved very hard to find the correct spec of rivets in the UK at all, let alone at a price anyone would actually pay,(I need 2500) one of the problems being that a large amount of the suply chain is based around the aircraft industry so is v e r y pricey, regular trade sources here couldn't come up with a rivet with a sizable enough head and the large US firms like Mc Master Carr won't ship to a non account individual in the UK, here, finally, is the source of rivets I ordered.

http://www.vintagetrailersupply.com/Airstream_Buck_Rivets_p/vts-826.htm

This may be of use to someone else.

[Bill Gibson]

A quality rivet gun will be the best. You could do it with a cheap air chisel gun, but you won't get good consistent results. A good rivet gun hit's with much more predictability. And you can buy different size tooling for them, for the different size rivets. The inside of them is polished so that the material moves easily. When it's done right, the inside will look just like the outside. I don't know if that tooling will fit the cheap air chisels.

[kit]

Unquestionably using a good quality rivet air gun is the best way to go.
But…
The problems here are two fold, firstly this is a home build so noise is an issue, yes the rivet gun only runs in short bursts, and I do find it hard to believe that as detailed in the spec for the gun you really need 90 PSI to drive home a 1/8’’ shank aluminium rivet, but whatever way you look at it the compressor is going to be running for one hell of a long time over the duration of the build.
Second and biggest problem is human, there is a lot of this structure that can’t be reached both sides by one man, therefore I need a ‘victim’ on the inside holding a setting block.
Now there’s an invite we’d all dream of, ‘can you stand inside this metal box whilst I drive home 2500 rivets with an air gun’,
It is just not a runner, this build fits in around the rest of my life in stops and starts, trying to coordinate, and be reliant on, a second man would be a nightmare, yes it would work out if you were constructing the project as in the Airstream link I posted in *1 in ideal factory conditions with all the panels correctly preformed and hung where the victim could work at a pace where they might stay awake, but I’ve worked my nuts off all my life to precisely not be in a situation like that. Besides this is a one off, there is all the fit up and tweeking of the panels for the victim to endure as well as the main construction process.
Na, it has to be approached another way.

[kit]

Warning. A degree of open mindedness is required, what follows may be a choking risk to anyone of a sound engineering background, especially varnerable are those who work on air craft, people with a fixed mind set, the infirm or overly anal, it may be best to move your coffee cup away from your computer, remove any false teeth / dental plates etc, or just plain quit this post here. :lol::lol::lol:

Edit: That's 'of a sound engineering backgound' as in a well trained mechanical engineer, not as in, once worked with Clapton but can't remember which album or where the studio was and says 'what?' alot nowadays.

[kit]

The requirements for this job are.
To trim the rivet to the right amount of protrusion, 1.5 times the rivet shank diameter.
Apply force to both ends of the rivet at once to deform the inside end to 1.5 times the shank diameter wide X .5 high whilst not messing up the head end.
To be able to do this from one side of the panel only with a reach into the structure of anywhere up to 1 metre.
The rivet needs to be tight on the sheet and not let in water.

So here’s the logic.
What I need is a frame to reach in the 1 metre, and some force to set the rivet.
If the force is a constant the frame is going to need to be so huge to withstand it with a 1 metre reach that it’s a nonstarter, so I need an intermittent force, hammering.
If that hammering has a fast action as in an air gun, again the frame is going to have to be large enough to withstand that force without moving the two ends of the frame out of parallel and screwing up the rivet set, so for a light weight frame I need a slow hammering action.
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=7774

I made this frame up out of some old galvanised water main and an old mower handle, it was stronger than I thought it would be when it was finished, I gave it a good heave and only managed to open it a few millimetres before getting one of those ripping squelching noises from my elbow we all know and love:eek:.
So how much force would it take to set the rivet correctly? They are only 1/8’’ Alli’ after all.
I started with the lightest ball peen hammer I’ve got, trimmed the rivet to the right length and just let the hammer drop with it’s own weight from 3’’ onto the rivet head. 50 drops and the rivet was set to the right dimensions but needed three or so more blows with a little more force to tighten it onto the sheet properly.
So a light weight hammer powered by a spring was clearly going to set the rivet and not open the frame if it had a slow hit rate.
The hammer needs to be powered, so it needed a light weight slow turning motor, ie a wiper motor and an adjustable spring force.

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=7775

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=7776

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=7777

This performs all the criteria of the spec perfectly, it does the job quietly, just tap tap tap, and will allow me to work completely at my own pace, it sets the rivets tightly with the ends parallel, is adjustable enough by moving the spring position at the top in relation to the fulcrum to set it up so that it can hit in a range from not enough force to stop the rivet being able to be rotated after being worked, to hitting overly hard and just splatting it, fine tuning being by moving the spring at it’s base along the threaded rod. The wiper motor has easily enough umphh to start from a rest position at any point of the cycle no matter how much tension is on the spring, (which to be honest surprised me!)
The heads are reversible top to bottom and mountable either straight or at an angle across the frame (mounting brackets not all in place yet in the photos posted) so that covers all the angles I’m going to work at on the curved parts of the construction.
It is not intended to be hand held, all the runs of rivets are in straight lines, I’m intending to bolt the whole thing to my engine hoist upright and or run it along scaffold board guides in use.
If all the rivets in a run are trimmed to the same length, it will take the same amount of hits (around 30) for each one to be set and the end results will all match. The machine delivers around 3 hits every 2 seconds so the hits are easily counted for continuity.

But, yes it’s a contraption.

[LARRY KAEMPFER]

pop rivets with no hole are sold, they are called closed end rivets, and no you can not use a muffler gun to set rivets, it will ring the dome on the rivet every time, use only aircraft long stroke rivet guns, at 90lbs air at the gun, they hit faster and have a longer stroke at the same time,,,easy work !! but only with the right tools ???

[jlrussell4]

Hi Kit,

You sure come up with some neat "contraptions" :idea:. I love it http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[kit]

Yes the same suplier as used can suply blind rivets.

http://www.vintagetrailersupply.com/Blind_Riveting_s/205.htm

The cost on a complete build using Olympic rivets and buying a shaver for them compared to using Buck rivets is quite a hit.


& Thanks Jim.

[Joefish]

That is one slick rig you have there. If you lived on this side of the pond it might be called a red neck tool. Congrats on your out of the box thinking!! I like it.

[oldgoaly]

a British Redneck! :lol: I got to say you think these things out! and the things you come up with are quite interesting!!! Thanks for sharing with us!!!

[beatamax]

When we build aluminium bodies on wagons we use solid pop rivets like these, because there solid they're waterproof.

http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/150522336640?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&adtype=pla

Get yourself an air riveter they'll work on your home compressor.

the panels are sealed and bonded with the first sealer in this pdf

http://storage.cbf.uk.com/pdf/SEALANTSANDADHESIVES.pdf