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captainkirk
10-03-2011, 10:36 AM
I've been working for some time on and off over the last three+ years(taking time out to eat and do the laundry) on a different style of thumbnail shrinking die.
Originally the design started as a "low speed shrinking set" and it has evolved into a design I'm adapting to the Pullmax.
I have been shrinking with them this morning and they seem to be working really well. They are very aggressive but seem to be really gentle on the metal. I am only working in steel so far no idea how they will stack up against the other thumbnail dies I have on aluminum.
Different lengths and heights on the thumb from a standard set, the idea is that the double set of thumbs (three actually) captures the tuck better and shrinks faster than say just running a standard set in an out twice.

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=5399

ESjaavik
10-03-2011, 10:43 AM
I'm amazed to see that you may be enroute to prove that a greater number of thumbs may sometimes be an advantage!

Please post some pictures of the shrunk sheet metal. I can imagine it will mark up the metal to a lesser degree and thus be an alternative to the "old style" thumbdie set.

When you say 3 thumbs then you count 2 of them in one die and the third in the other die going between these. Am I right?

captainkirk
10-03-2011, 11:00 AM
i'm amazed to see that you may be enroute to prove that a greater number of thumbs may sometimes be an advantage!

Please post some pictures of the shrunk sheet metal. I can imagine it will mark up the metal to a lesser degree and thus be an alternative to the "old style" thumbdie set.

When you say 3 thumbs then you count 2 of them in one die and the third in the other die going between these. Am i right?

your correct there is actually a tuck formed between the two thumbs and clearance for it is critical to overall performance.

Hopefully all the work will have a payoff in the end.

Dawai
10-03-2011, 12:15 PM
HEY.. you're hunting the holy grail of shrinking too?

Very neat.

Are ya putting clay in them and measuring the contact clearances?
Like a plasti gauge for clearances on a rod bearing?

captainkirk
10-03-2011, 01:31 PM
The proof is in the Pudding!......What does that mean?

Anyway I just took a small sheet of flat 19 gage steel and cut an odd shape out and did nothing but run it through the new dies.
I didn't planish it out at any point nor hammer etc.all I did was sand the edge lightly when I was done.
I hope this gives an idea what they will do.
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=5401

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=5402

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=5400

ESjaavik
10-03-2011, 02:28 PM
:o:o:o:o Wow! That bowl will hold a huge pudding. :D

Is the area between the thumbs level with the "smile" area or are there more clearance there?

Dawai
10-03-2011, 02:40 PM
THE long smooth thumbs? I'd be thrilled to see what a CLOSE up video on the back side done in SLOW Mo would look like..

Looks like you got it.. Someone needs a scanner to digitize them it looks like for a cnc program.

Carbuilder
10-03-2011, 02:48 PM
Great thinking out of the bowl our king rules now your loyal subjects need a little more info on the thumb sizes.

captainkirk
10-03-2011, 02:51 PM
:o:o:o:o Wow! That bowl will hold a huge pudding. :D

Is the area between the thumbs level with the "smile" area or are there more clearance there?

It has a clearance that is critical to it working right....lots of time in this design:o

captainkirk
10-03-2011, 02:55 PM
Great thinking out of the bowl our king rules now your loyal subjects need a little more info on the thumb sizes.

Their about that wide by this high by that long and there real hard to figure out:D
(I could give you all the dimensions but then how would your king eat???;))

It would be loads easier for me to have them CNC'd and "sell you a set......

Your King
(And current holder of the Holy Grail of shrinking)

It's good to be King....

kit
10-03-2011, 02:59 PM
current holder of the Holy Grail of shrinking

It's getting smaller...

Carbuilder
10-03-2011, 03:00 PM
O great king let your subjects know how much GOLD you will need.

captainkirk
10-03-2011, 03:35 PM
I did a real quick planishing to show what permanent shape there is. My goal wasn't to make it shiny so you could shave in the reflection just to show that the shape change isn't held in the ripples.
I would likely sand out whats left as the side are really thick at this point anyway.
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=5405

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=5406

Dawai
10-03-2011, 03:52 PM
Brother, you got the grail this week.. just like a trophy.. I'll give you that..

BUT....
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=410&pictureid=5407

I put This 350 chevy connecting rod into my shrinker today, it was good for over 8,000 rpm... another one let go and came out onto the asphalt.. and I lost that case of beer.

I had to modify it slightly.. (snicker)..

captainkirk
10-03-2011, 04:01 PM
O great king let your subjects know how much GOLD you will need.

Ahhhh gold the coin of the realm, shiney.......my precious

Your King positively drools at the thought....:evil:


Truth is I don't know what it will cost to get a set scanned and then some made, is there anyone out there that does this sort of thing and could give me an idea?

captainkirk
10-03-2011, 04:08 PM
Brother, you got the grail this week.. just like a trophy.. I'll give you that..

BUT....
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=410&pictureid=5407

I put This 350 chevy connecting rod into my shrinker today, it was good for over 8,000 rpm... another one let go and came out onto the asphalt.. and I lost that case of beer.

I had to modify it slightly.. (snicker)..

A brand new shiney set of "Camel back shrinking dies" would really look nice in your new machine....
(I await the unloading of your gold on my doorstep:D)

Dawai
10-03-2011, 04:09 PM
I've done it here. My cnc needs a overhaul. Got a drive down, the computer off it and mice are living in the control panels.

I have been working on a sheet metal scanning program. Probably now 10 years.

Check out the Mach3 forum on Yahoo. I've not signed in there in years.. if I still have a membership there.

What I'd suggest, pulling a rubber mold of them.. getting Wax dupes..and finding a foundry that can pour some decent steel.. DON'T LOSE THE ORIGINALS.. Engineers paperweight from now on..

Overkill
10-03-2011, 04:09 PM
Kirk,

I had been mentally toying with the idea of using three thumbnails in a triangular pattern. Such that the tuck of the middle thumbnail would be compounded be the outer two thumbnails (one on either side).

One of the issues I was concerned about was the overall size of the die. But using smaller thumbnails could help reduce this.

My other mental exercise was about how to move the thumbnail to smile distance such that it shrunk all the way to the edge, and wouldn't leave the flat area in the last inch or so.

With your kingly life of leisure, perhaps you would have time to test the ideas out?

Bill Gibson
10-03-2011, 04:18 PM
I was honored to visit the Castle on a few occasions while the Grail was being sought......There was indeed a lot of sweat equity and testing and tweaking.....When last I was there, our King was working out the finer details of eliminating the dreaded reverse flair that seems to plague all thumnail dies. Judging by the photos it looks like he has solved that issue.
I dare not reveal any secrets, but if one were to have attended the EMMR Event this summer, they would have seen these dies being tested in an arbor press........Talk about slow motion!!!! I can assure you that every fraction of an inch of motion, and every pound of pressure exerted on every part of the material has been carefully analyzed. That's just the way the King goes about things.......There's nothing Willy Nilly here. Imperical evidence is the Rule.
I will say that they are agressive. I dare say that even though there is only double the amount of thumbs, The shrink rate is two and a half, to three times what you get with a single thumbnail die.
I know that just doesn't compute, but I have heard that four thirds of all humans have trouble with fractions:eek:

All Hail The King......

bobadame
10-03-2011, 04:20 PM
I have a cnc mill. I could make my own. I will not do that. You deserve the coin and the credit for this tool. I'd like it to be hardened to about 50Rc. Let me know how much, if I can afford it I'll buy one. Nice work there my king.

captainkirk
10-03-2011, 04:21 PM
Kirk,

I had been mentally toying with the idea of using three thumbnails in a triangular pattern. Such that the tuck of the middle thumbnail would be compounded be the outer two thumbnails (one on either side).

One of the issues I was concerned about was the overall size of the die. But using smaller thumbnails could help reduce this.

My other mental exercise was about how to move the thumbnail to smile distance such that it shrunk all the way to the edge, and wouldn't leave the flat area in the last inch or so.

With your kingly life of leisure, perhaps you would have time to test the ideas out?

I toyed with the triangular pattern at first but discarded it as likely trying to feed to much into one area at one time.
There is only so much metal that you can shrink before you end up with some huge lines of increased thickness of metal.
I have been working to try and quantify what is the most you want to shoot for, there is also the problem of cracking the metal if you push to much at one time it tends to form a really condensed fold that weakens the internal structure at that point you might as well just get out the Lancasters and just rip the crap out of it.
Cold forming has it's limits and you actually should be "sneaking up on your total overall shape anyway....to much shrink in one small area isn't going to get you where you want to go in the long run.

Kirk

captainkirk
10-03-2011, 04:59 PM
I have a cnc mill. I could make my own. I will not do that. You deserve the coin and the credit for this tool. I'd like it to be hardened to about 50Rc. Let me know how much, if I can afford it I'll buy one. Nice work there my king.

Your a stand up guy......

You will be Knighted for your sense of honor integrity and justice....as soon as the gold arrives;)

Your humble King

Hairy-Neil
10-03-2011, 05:09 PM
The proof is in the Pudding!......What does that mean?



My mother always said, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

In other words, there are more important issues than the looks alone.

Overkill
10-03-2011, 06:21 PM
Yes, wadding up the metal and causing uneven thicknesses is an issue.

With a triangular design, or in general, using smaller thumbnails was my thought. I'm also wondering if the smaller thumbnails would assist in helping with the dreaded reverse stretch we've all experienced. Or the flat area along the edge.

With a single small thumbnail, the amount of shrink is minimal and would require repeated thrusts in and out of the machine. However, with multiple small thumbnails (camel back or triangular), the same amount of shrink that large thumbnails would create, without some of the issues caused by larger thumbnails, could be obtained?

oldgoaly
10-03-2011, 06:49 PM
oh Lord......
what about the two humps being a tad bit closer at sweet spot, a little wider at the back side or would the angle be hindrance to the inward feed of the metal? Sort-a-like a push up bra for shrinking metal? tt;)

Hotrod1932
10-03-2011, 07:55 PM
NICE!!!!!!!!!!!

Kirk there is a reason you crowned yourself king!!! ;)

"We bask in the garden of your callidity" my liege!

captainkirk
10-04-2011, 04:47 AM
NICE!!!!!!!!!!!

Kirk there is a reason you crowned yourself king!!! ;)

"We bask in the garden of your callidity" my liege!

Callidity
(n.) Acuteness of discernment; cunningness; shrewdness.

I like this reason for me being King!

And all this time I attributed it to me being a bit of a pompous arse....

Henseforth I am King because of my "Callidity".......(now that I know what it means:D)

If your not having fun at this...your doing it wrong...

captainkirk
10-04-2011, 06:15 AM
oh Lord......
what about the two humps being a tad bit closer at sweet spot, a little wider at the back side or would the angle be hindrance to the inward feed of the metal? Sort-a-like a push up bra for shrinking metal? tt;)

"Tad closer" doesn't work (this also goes for a tad taller a tad shorter basically if you make anything using the "tad" measurement the gods will not shine on you)

Having said that I have always found that there is a way to improve on all designs...so lets say we use a "smidge" instead of a tad and you make them "A Smidge" both shorter and wider then this might work.

It is the concept that is the most difficult thing......once you see that the light bulb works you can start to imagine all sorts of ways you might improve on it.
I'm an "inventor" a thinker of great and not so great thoughts, I don't give you the exact dimensions so as not to contain you thoughts by what has already been done....

Now go forth and "improve".....your King commands (as he rubs his belly and head like in a Monty Python sketch)

Your a very clever bunch...some are even quite smart

Dawai
10-04-2011, 06:59 AM
HEY.. you mean all them "lil Marks on a ruler"??

(hydro-electric plant.. co worker said.. "we ain't building a watch")
When I asked him how come his conduit didn't fit the first time.

shortbus
10-04-2011, 08:52 AM
The old story was that a yard was the length of the kings arm. From now on the measure of shrink shall be "our kings two thumbs":p

ESjaavik
10-04-2011, 09:54 AM
Please take note that our king have prescribed 3 thumbs, not 2!

Unlike some other members CNC mills, mine is actually makin chips. So if I can make a decent drawing of this I may try to make a set in good Bugly Tradition. My problem is doing a drawing properly as a parametric drawing so new sets with changes in thumb size, separation etc. can be made with ease. Hey Ben, what about you? This way it would be easy to order a change of 1/8 Tad, or using a good conversion program maybe even using the more acknowledged Smidgen.

I'm not so sure a lot of passes of a single thumb die will be any more gentle to the metal than a few more purposeful passes of this design. If all changes applied to the metal is in the desired direction that would be an improvement compared to do another pass to correct what the previous did wrong. I have been carefully placing some chewed up sheetmetal into the waste bin in hope noone would see or hear it. This due to too many passes through the monothumb dies. Or possibly too many thumbs wrongly used.

Dawai
10-04-2011, 10:21 AM
What is the advantage to machining them instead of casting them in tool steel? YOU start with a block of "hard alloy", then use expensive end mills to reduce it to the proper shape. Then once cut to proper dimensions you must surface harden it back anyways.

NOW a cnc edm. (YEAH.. I been working on that edm project now more than 10 years) I made a pretty sparkler to plans purchased.. kinda disappointed in that. They have to use dielectric fluid to even work.

Next, a place to do it. Talking to a foundry in Chattanooga Tn.. they wanted $1200 to cast my wooden models in iron.. nasty pig iron. A machine about 500lbs.. no more.

Reading about "quality steel".. Japan, Finland, England still produce good stuff. Which is funny to me, cause Japanese stuff when I was a kid was akin to the HF tools of today.

Perhaps "over there across the ocean" there is a foundry that still produces tool steel??

ESjaavik
10-04-2011, 10:59 AM
In Finland I think they are mostly casting mobile phones. :rolleyes:

In sweden they produce tool steel, well pretty much any steel. Uddeholm is one of them.

Here in Norway we have foundries casting about any steel and metal you may imagine and some you don't. The oil industry is asking for strange things and can pay for them.

Casting may be an option when the design is cast in stone, which it is not now. So maybe we should not cast it in steel either? We should experiment with different variations of the design. I think that is what our King was calling upon us to do in his last post.

And this is one thing CAD paired with CNC does very well.

captainkirk
10-04-2011, 11:51 AM
In Finland I think they are mostly casting mobile phones. :rolleyes:

In sweden they produce tool steel, well pretty much any steel. Uddeholm is one of them.

Here in Norway we have foundries casting about any steel and metal you may imagine and some you don't. The oil industry is asking for strange things and can pay for them.

Casting may be an option when the design is cast in stone, which it is not now. So maybe we should not cast it in steel either? We should experiment with different variations of the design. I think that is what our King was calling upon us to do in his last post.

And this is one thing CAD paired with CNC does very well.

The "understanding" is that you can use ideas for your own benefit but that you should not use the ideas to build a business on. If you use the ideas to make money then you ask permission first, if we all don't adhere to this policy then why would anyone post anything that they spent hundreds of hours to design and build?
I't supposed to be a self policing system base on the honor and integrity of the individual.

So let it be written so let it be done.....

Dawai
10-05-2011, 05:55 AM
I thought CK had it "really" close to "holy grail" shrinking??

My lil Shrinky project, I ran it at 240hz to check for "shrapnel" and the UHMW slides for the ram is not going to work. Needs brass I think with a grease fitting.

Kirk, I'd like a set for my own use, but is so broke around here I can't "pay attention". And it has taken me two hours today just to get woke up.. cool weather and the windows are open.

I do however have a improvement. You're enough like to me be a "show me" person thou. (here we go..) Pull it out onto the street he says and quit talking.

Gimme a few more days. (or weeks.. or some projects years)

Joe Andrews
10-05-2011, 06:19 PM
Yes King I hear you Hailing me in the Dungeon below?
Ahhhh gold the coin of the realm, shiney.......my precious

Your King positively drools at the thought....:evil:


Truth is I don't know what it will cost to get a set scanned and then some made, is there anyone out there that does this sort of thing and could give me an idea?

captainkirk
10-05-2011, 11:33 PM
Yes King I hear you Hailing me in the Dungeon below?

I sent you a message thanks for the replyJoe

Kirk

Dawai
10-06-2011, 03:37 AM
HEY.. that's someone I trust the machining to...

My machining only has to be done two or three times to be close to right.
JUST PURCHASING Roller BLANKS locally in 4130 is near what he charges for anvils. (they just stock 1030 mild)

His tooling throws "sparks".. (high speed) Perhaps he's the Magician the King needs?