Fender Shaping!!

[kujo820]

I need some tips on how to make a fender. Ive been making mini chopper and need to find out a good way to shape a nice fender for a 9 inch wide tire. let me know if you guys have any guide or anything that might help.

[GregM67]

if you do a search for "tucks or tucking" you may find Wrays diagram of a fender there. Good luck...Greg M

[kujo820]

Hey i found one of the diagrams and it helped alot, i was going about making the fender from the wrong angle, i was doing the curve that follows the diameter of the wheel first, instead of the one for the width of the tire, but now when i go to flatten the tucks, they fold or just hammer out straight :x so anyone have tips on how to maintain the shape i get by tucking when i hammer those down?

[GregM67]

Well. I'm gonna say that depending on the type of metal you are using is going to have an affect on how much shrink you get at one time. What are you using? You didn't say that. Shrinking any metal is a lot harder than stretching it. Try clamping on each side of the tuck and hammering. What hammer or hammers are you using. The only true way to cold shrink metal is with a softer hammmer or mallet against a hard surface and the amount of tuck you put in to it start with. Or if you have a shrinker. I'm sure others here can help you more in detail. Some metals may need annealed to help work and shrink to the desired shape and contour.

[kujo820]

I picked up a set of auto body hammers all various shapes, all metal. i do have a rubber mallot so ill try that out,

[Wray Schelin]

Kujo820 ( a real name like "Bob, Steve, etc., works better. :D ),

Here is what you need to do to make a motorcycle fender shape.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3001/4shrinks-med.JPG



This is how you crush each tuck


http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3001/4shrinkpattern-med.JPG

You can use any type of hammer steel. plastic, wood, etc. as long as it has a rounded chisel shaped end on it.

Here is my modified door skinning hammer which works excellent when shrinking against a flat piece of steel,or plastic, or wood.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3242/4shrinking_hammer-med.JPG

Here is my plastic headed mallet which also works great when shrinking against a flat piece of steel, or plastic , or wood.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3242/4woodshapingmallet3-med.JPG


To maximize the shrink as you crush it flat, roughly following the diagram above, you want to make sure you crowd the sides of the tucks in. Make sure they are at about a 70 degree angle. That will help lock them. Also as you crush the inboard tail of the tuck start
lifting the panel up, trying to keep the area of the tail just at the point of slightly raising it off of the flat surface that you are crushing against. If you follow those rules you will find that shrinking is as easy as stretching. If you read somewhere in the past that shrinking is harder to do than stretching, you'll come to realize that that statement is incorrect. :D Shrinking is easy just like stretching is easy, you just have to follow the rules of the metal. :shock:


Wray

[Boogiemanz1]

Wray, that is the most easy to follow, complete answer, along with pictures and arows, I've ever seen, This one needs to be reserved as an answer to FAQ for this site..........jb

[kujo820]

well first off im 16 and my names Brandon, and thanks for the tips wray, ill try to form my fender again tommorow and then ill post some pics, just now i was working on a bowl (ive never formed concave metal shapes before) and i posted a pic of one of the gas tanks ive made. let me know any tips you guys got, thanks :D

http://groups.msn.com/occorangecountychoppersafansite/membersalbumpersonalpics.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Pho toID=2127 (http://www.phpbb.com/)

just hit previous to see the other 4 pics i posted, and also if you go to page 6 in the member galley, you can see the chopper im building under the name "chopperguy16" Thanks,

[kujo820]

http://groups.msn.com/occorangecountychoppersafansite/membersalbumpersonalpics.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Pho toID=2127

heres the site, didnt show up on other post

[Dublin751]

Kujo it sounds like you and I are in the same boat. I have been trying to make fenders for a mini bike also but havent had much luck. Now that I have read all the info that Wray has posted I think I mite be able to do it.

Wray are you going to be a the metal meet in April? I hope so cause I would really like to watch you work. Thanks agin for posting all the info you do!

[kujo820]

Well heres is my fender :oops: pretty terrible, i tried tucking on the one edge, and then when i went to do the other, it twisted, so i cut it in half and welded it when i was done with the two halves, but it came out terrible, when i went to hammer the tucks by shrinking them, it just flatted out the curve of the fender, also when i tucked i lost the curve along the top of the peice that follows the width of the tire, can someone tell me what im doin wrong??

http://groups.msn.com/occorangecountychoppersafansite/membersalbumpersonalpics.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Pho toID=2128



[/url]

[kujo820]

also can someone tell me how to put the pictures right in my message? Thanks

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Kujo, two things,

we're a pretty friendly bunch so if you are going to use an email handle, please sign a name to your posts.

To include your photo, you go to whereever ON THE INTERNET, not your local hard drive, your photo is and select properties. Copy the URL.

Then go to the MM post, click on IMG, copy the url, and click on IMG again.

This works with any internet location including the MM gallery.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwAPA28d3ZIyVICxLFXYxLLu!5E7bQyN1vQ8HtDAEeTe6rnCC fUp8s8R0!ZnolWsxa!NmP4TAvHmS*!Tsp4*c9qz!9ipxLr2hCr Cvxvs3HK5WcgfGORsPbZLdRBFQRbP2uH9kxlzhaY/000_0141.JPG?dc=4675465181456387396

Regarding your fender, I'd suggest you try a simple bowl first to learn the concepts of stretching and tuck shrinking. If there is someone nearby with and Ewheel, a shop visit will make things much clearer for you. Like I said, we're a friendly bunch. Where are you located.

[kujo820]

thanks, well i tried making my bowl, heres a few pics, i just got a new hammer thats plastic so ill try shrinking some tucks with that, http://groups.msn.com/occorangecountychoppersafansite/membersalbumpersonalpics.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Pho toID=2125


http://groups.msn.com/occorangecountychoppersafansite/membersalbumpersonalpics.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Pho toID=2126


http://groups.msn.com/occorangecountychoppersafansite/membersalbumpersonalpics.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Pho toID=2127


As for where i live, im in Buffalo NY, i wanted to go to your metal meet coming up, but i cant miss school, unfortunatly though because id love to learn how to shape first hand. Thanks once agqain, Brandon [/url]

[kujo820]

http://groups.msn.com/occorangecountychoppersafansite/membersalbumpersonalpics.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Pho toID=2125
picture dont seem to be showing up, so im trying again,


Brandon

[jlrussell4]

Hi Brandon,

To attach you picture: go to the picture on the internet. Right click on the image. click on properties.Copy the url (highlite and ctrl c) go to the post. click on the img box at the top of the post. copy (ctrl v) the url. then click on the img box again. click on preview button at the bottom of the message box and you will be able to see wheather or not the image copied.

your url

Jim

[kujo820]

sorry im having such a hard time posting these pics........

[kujo820]

FINALLY GOT IT!!! :D :D

ok heres my fender, this is the side i tried to hammer down the tucks on,
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwDRAnEdiZMyVICxLFXYxN*pJILWf2uvoRyaqd2Zj4l1DR8m2 Ijw2TCi5PSEY8nRhFQh*BVA6lmVMR7WKJc5JB!tqNxp*QcxE1U et!TkhE9wnuMMSOsIHmDWiTBgIYCmWSxhkgbi!hI/000_0143.JPG?dc=4675465203991465186


and as for my bowl, heres a few pics,

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwDRAnQdipQyVICxLFXYxMreiw7VfHFBVo8w8LGfBvENVVsUY ctPyR3XszqW!Dm9wlO2vjr7mxE64xy34gTLEHtsDa14srPLelW TRXB2KhgEo3KhSl!2hjw!9EeIsaMXB27mK8NytDg/000_0137.JPG?dc=4675465085763152787


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwD**3YdNpUyVICxLFXYxCk0i!LyGRZphTJ6xhv5MGHGlKQn9 mQs*1kc8ZMX3BNb7RINJ*0!kl5hsSYaWnSvHzPZG9nfJum8jE2 vU8Owt9GcxkEPTMHLRpTafhjMcuUV7evpeSeXAvk/000_0139.JPG?dc=4675465085774260845



as you can see i need some help, so i figure why not ask the best, thanks for putting up with me and all, but id really like to learn all this stuff.

Brandon

[mr.c]

Brandon: I took a look at your photo. It appears to me that your tucks are a bit on the "harsh" side. Yours look like they have a sharp corner. What are you using to make your tucks? They need to be a lot smoother. No sharp corners. Having a problem with the tucks folding over? Those sharp corners make it easy for the tuck to fold up. Not what you want to happen. Do a search here on this site on tucking forks. You also need to planish the metal after hammering out the tucks. Otherwise you will be overstressing your metal. Put in a few tucks,hammer them out, planish,tucks,hammer,planish.........
Above all don't get frustrated. We are here to help you.

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Brandon,

You didn't link your pictures correctly. Use the preview button first before you submit your message. The preview will show you if everthing is as you want it.

You can go back into your "broken" post and edit it to correct it.

Wray

[jlrussell4]

Hi Brandon,

I think Carey has hit on part of the problem. Tucking forks are tapered, yielding a smooth cone style of tuck. Sometimes it's also helpful to hold the tucking tool at a slight angle to the metal edge to enhance the cone shape. When you work the tucks it is sometimes helpful to go up along the sides of the cone and tighten the cone up a bit. That sounds confusing to me :? so I'll add that you hit on the flat metal along the edge of the cone, just touching the cone. That's why most tucking hammers are wedge shaped. Start at the small (inner) end end of the tuck following the pattern that Wray posted. You are trying to force the metal that is raised up in the sides of the cone into itself. A part that has been shrunk will be thicker than the parent metal. If the cone starts to spread as you are hammering on it, hammer along the edge again to tighten the cone back up. If it spreads, you can't force the sides of the cone back into it's self.

Now if I haven't confused you too much :) .......

Jim

[kujo820]

Thanks guys, i made a quick tuck tool before i got going, so tomorow ill try to make a nicer one, Carey, as for the planishing part, what exactly do you mean, i see that pop up in almost every post, but i still dont know what it means :oops: also when you tuck, do you use a twisting motion or lift it up??? Jim thanks alot for that explination, had to read over it few times to understand it :D but i get what your saying, ill get up some new pictures tommorow hopefully, Thanks

Brandon

[Boogiemanz1]

Brandon, to planish loosely means to smooth by hitting with a hammer. What you want to accomplish by planishing in this instance is to smooth the area you are working, and to take the stress out of the metal. You can do this with a hammer and dolly, a planishing hammer, or an english wheel. The wheel probably does the best job of relieving the stress.

Usually you use a tucking tool in a twisting motion, if you lift with it, make sure you are not punching in the surface with the ends, which should be smooth. If it is difficult to turn, and your panel is manageable,....clamp the forks in a vice and turn the panel in them. Make sure you are making the tucks on the inside of the fender, they are easier to hit that way. ...........john

[kujo820]

Thanks john, ill go try making some new tucks and planish them up, when it comes to hammering down tuck though, does anyone have a video clip of this by any chance?? thanks,

Brandon

[KustomsRus]

Brandon try this link
Wray explained it on a previous post
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3001/4shrinkpattern-med.JPG?3935

Try using the "search" feature at the top of the metalmeet site, you can find lots of the good stuff from the pros :lol: and everyone is willing to help :D

Wray's comments and pictures were in January I think, just enter hammering tucks in the search box and it brings up alot about it :shock:

Jerry Kennedy

[kujo820]

ok, here ive posted pics step by stepfrom what i think im doing right, i tried to make smoother tucks this time around, so let me know what im doing wrong at this point and where i go from here,

rolled fender

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwAJA3Id35MyVICxLFXYxEZslWNg3QRIjGsUQug4*hEXc4HEd 9LU!*bBkpZ6PgGF0lMTC3WwnAtcwrNSFf4fMsK79n8e*WLM5c6 zwLC2H9bv4!KXou4og3GD6Fhev1eFEFzQSi*evMc/000_0144.JPG?dc=4675465331232803043

then i added a few tucks on one side

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WwAJA5ocux8yVICxLFXYxHdd4tnQt1gw7080ilu8bG4MIPEAG rCHFp4m!mJ80Xq6kv2ltJH4tbzI8NjA14A009AMwqJhAwk19B4 XaWSz46M6!*mc0ZNG1MjFfoKjzymILSVwZOXMq!I/000_0145.JPG?dc=4675465331241101874

and this is the fender with all the tucks in, i need more of a curve though in the fender then what the tucks gave me

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwDRAnUd4ZQyVICxLFXYxHlRLB9Sil!2KbqMz6XDMIG5az5Y7 tC4TNW0ANFd3*sqAh52!7aoJeyO7W8D*A7*dtUkPxz4ae8wCPx aKzbBw6mRGcWbR*W!dHswp1UDceQVcWQbTmN3T4Q/000_0147.JPG?dc=4675465331245726122


Brandon

[Richard K]

Kujo820,

You are on the right track, you are just making the classic mistake. You expect this hunk of metal to look like a fender too soon. When you rolled the flat sheet into a channel form you set yourself up for failure. Take that beat up first effort with all the tucks in it; flatten it out ( get rid of the channel shape) and then start hammering down the tucks. The fender will assume a fender shape as you shrink the outside edges. If you have a hammer and shot bag, consider stretching the center area of the fender also. It is easier to stretch than shrink. The combination of both will work nicely.

Again , you will not be able to hammer the tucks with that roll at the tuck origin. Grasp the fender with the open channel upward, put it over you knee and straighten it out . The nasty folds at the end of the tucks will most likely level out and you can pound down the tucks on a flat hard surface. As you shrink the tucks the fender will roll by itself

[kujo820]

i tried what you said and go this,

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwDYAnYdN5UyVICxLFXYxIaT6SsExSQqNVP!2IhWoscMXObrj 0yxCpzstX5p7sAL1efWRVuJ8pWH3M3fgSQFJT!*hrZynUgC6vZ V0XGIYSPq7cgrhFUF!PLfv3Hs9iaQCVL7salxIQs/000_0148.JPG?dc=4675465343010362146

so now do i tuck, hammer planish again, and just keep repeating that same process like Jim said?, thanks,


Brandon

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Yes Brandon. Also, your tucks need to be taller and more tapered. You have to have enough slope on them for the metal to be pushed in as you crush the tucks. If the tuck is too 'flat' it will just flatten out without shrinking much or at all.

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Brandon,

Check out these videos.

clickhere for videos (http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=3094&ppuser=4&password=&page=1/)

Wray

[kujo820]

Wray, thanks for the clip, ill get going on this fender now, itll probably take me a while, but hopefully ill have a nice, clean, smooth fender when i get back to you guys later, thanks,

brandon

[jlrussell4]

Hi Brandon,

I noticed your tucking tool in one of the pictures. The tines have too much space in between them. They will have to fit tighter to the metal before you can get a real nice tuck. Wray's video shows very well what I was trying :) to explain. If a picture is worth a thousand words, you would need 2 thousand of mine to understand what was in that video :lol: Keep after this - you will get a nice fender soon.
Jim

[kujo820]

im still working on it, but id figure id ppost some pics and have you guys sort of evaluate my work to this point. let me know what you think and any tips you might have

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WwDYApMcqR4yVICxLFXYxOulSgNavgB6*BDb0HKen4ufrJDqk 39dcU*6Qh49BfVvN1rtzjfOpBNBPg*lKYO4JzUkgQ2OSwB39!9 Z5ighyvzAMrD!p3gviZYtafCeE84FCmOKiOX6vrM/000_0151.JPG?dc=4675465754652737717

im having trouble getting a curve on the ends of the fender too, if anyone can help me out with that thatd be great, thanks,


Brandon

[kujo820]

forgot to mention this in the last post, but when i planish with the hammer, i tend to straighten out the fender some, is this supposed to happen?? thanks again,

Brandon

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Brandon,

Hey, it looks like you've made a lot of progress in the learning curve. :D

Two things: lighten up your pictures so everyone can see them better. Also can you post a drawing of the cross sectional profile and the profile ( side view) of the fender shape that you want to replicate?

Wray


PS : Here is what the picture will look like if you lighten it.


http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3160/4mcfender1.jpg

[kujo820]

well, heres the wheel im going to have it on,

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WwDRApwcXiCGgCFe7aCU4FqFbqFxW4s86QiIZ4OkAgS5V16SD vn9pItrI*XCLmBQidNqCwcjKsFnNrciKnZJ7pe9*CHCvGWz4Ah piux8VMdoghmnsNyNpm*jKJO1Eq477KCUHc*V3tg/000_0057.JPG?dc=4675462190071636201

so hopefully that will be enough for you to see how much of a curve id like to have, right now the fender is about 6 inches off the ground at the higest point, so ill probably need it about 9 inches off the ground to fit the wheel good, the top is shaped pretty much how id like it, i just need to curve the ends around some, and i think that might give me what i need, but im not sure, so let me know what you think, thanks,

Brandon

[kujo820]

DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
and im happy with the results, i unfortuanatly dont have an english wheel to get it perfect, so i guess ill fill in the rough spots with bondo, but im so happy it at least looks like a fender haha, tell me what you guys think,
and thanks so much for all your help :D

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WwAAAJQc!x4yVICxLFXYxNZzCpxamA72747tS2ySoaKt9U2Yh 3BikKpRH7GLelVsm6RO2RbILHgbuf0jdF8JKU9II4yru3s5cUy 3ykhEtVWlnA3Oh7KAuELwxmcIEdyQyKaB0se2OfY/000_0152.JPG?dc=4675465895882042777

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WwDVApUcTR8yVICxLFXYxLAyc40CdhCS2nEvwRWSeF7u!rAXo 028uTbEiYNXbYaDs!c3uDt35bNMJHkjqBuU3Ny8R6jBW6jMfP9 lFsUy0g67P1leQm2buRVGKvxrLDeDqKidgr8FhEQ/000_0153.JPG?dc=4675465895889376036

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WwAAAJYcnx8yVICxLFXYxNMhqNqc8lwlhXm4MZIp2iRhWDHFF FEXBRilyTqd2sOqsf5uxAftoblDzebxDw8E9DDeZK1RDCCRWsO wl!gXte0XMQjP8k4hdIJ*1thtHuLcBZjDxoqTtDU/000_0154.JPG?dc=4675465895896109590

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Brandon,

Excellent first effort! All it needs now is a little planishing.

You can make up a very low buck airplanisher using a rivet gun and a frame made from scrap tubing.

You can also make a slapper and a post dolly and that will help you too.

Wray

[kujo820]

pretty ironic you say that cause i started on one earlier today, its not done, and i need to add gussets and make the dollies and all, but here it is

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XwDaAnAdX5QyVICxLFXYxA!!IkL!FD1sDt!IGXtREcPBaKfKc bigkiYWCmZedU70tNUTJRZHZDJ!EyhoSsZilwmTjYncPVGrs9j 75BGMq*YmYSiLOsAKJzeXCsnGIUPjMJ!tloSvqr0/000_0155.JPG?dc=4675465898113251245


Brandon

[ralph]

Hi Brandon,
Great first effort. :D When you look at where you were a few days ago it should make you quite proud. :)
forgot to mention this in the last post, but when i planish with the hammer, i tend to straighten out the fender some, is this supposed to happen??

This will happen whenever you planish because you are smoothing out the lumps or gathers in the metal. All the bumps represent "area" that has to be flattened. The shrinking only happens where you have pushed the metal together.

[Richard K]

Brandon,

It looks like a fender, it must be a fender. You not only got the shape, you got a nice fit to your wheel.

You have the main ingrediant to success, PERSISTANCE.

Kepp at it, you,re doin great.

[kujo820]

Thanks for all your help guys, ill get some pics up after i planish it,


Brandon

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Looks a heck of a lot better than my first fender....now that I think about it, it looks better than my second fender too.

Good work. Enthusiasm isn't quite as valuable as experience, but it's close!

[kujo820]

Thanks kerry, Next i have to make the front fender, which i think will be easier because the radius isnt so tight, ill post pics of that too once im done, along with my air planisher, thanks

Brandon

[toolmanMike]

Where Wray says "Make sure they are at about a 70 degree angle", is this the angle he's refering to?

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3301/201570_degrees1-med.jpg

Thanks,
Mike

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Mike,


Nice drawing! :D

Here is what I meant by 70 degrees for the wall angle.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3001/470degree.jpg


Wray

[toolmanMike]

This should look just about like one of your tucks. It's actually a screen shot of a solid model. If it looks appreciably different, let me know in what way and I'll tweak it. I'm trying to establish a visual reference for when I begin my first project in the next couple of weeks.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3301/201540_degrees-med.jpg

I really appreciate you and all the other professional craftsmen spending the time to get guys like me started. If you find at some point you could use a solid model for any reason, let me know and I'll try to crank it out.

Thanks,
Mike

[roberlt]

Wray,

Sorry to change the subject ( a little) but would that 70 deg. angle also apply to thumbnail dies ?
Thanks,

Rob

[Boogiemanz1]

Hey Mike, can you get with Wray and illustrate the tucking progression hits on your drawing. I have been meaning to take the one Wray made and have it blown up poster size for my shop. Makes it easier to explain a tuck...jb

[Wray Schelin]

Wray,

Sorry to change the subject ( a little) but would that 70 deg. angle also apply to thumbnail dies ?
Thanks,

Rob

Hi Rob,

I recommend a steep angle like 70 degrees when hand tuck shrinking because I have found it to work best . :D More and you risk a fold over and less will allow a lot of the captured metal to escape before you can crush it. I think the thumbnail dies might be different.

Wray

[toolmanMike]

I think I could better show the symmetry of the different blows with one of these views. I'm soliciting comments now before I go any further. I'll wait until Sunday to finish.

One thing I'm a little fuzzy on, is this the way we're looking at the tuck when we're hammering it? If not maybe I need to turn the view around 180 degrees....

Thanks,
Mike

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3301/2015tuck-med.jpg

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Mike,

Wow, that is fantastic. Can you tell us what CAD program you use and how long does it take to do something like that? Where are you located?

Normally the tuck would be oriented the other way ( just flip it 180 degrees). If you are going to show a series of illustrations detailing every step of the process of crushing the tuck you will also need to show the side view as well as the top view. From the side view the process will show how the panel is lifted as the tail is crushed. This lifting of the tail ( just to the point of lifting off the flat surface) helps to keep the tuck trapped.

It would be great if someone like yourself would step forward to lead the CAD forum so other members can learn CAD or improve their skills. Learning CAD is now one of my top priorities. :D

Thanks,

Wray

[Dutch Comstock]

Mike, the cad work on the tuck is super. this will help all beginners how a tuck is supposed to look like for there first try.The reason for the tall tuck versus the lower thumbnail tuck is the the thumbnai die is able to hammer on both sides of the tuck at the same time so the tuck is not able to slip away from you like it does when you are hammering on the backside of the tuck by hand. When you are hand working the tuck it will start losing its high profile qiuckly and you have to keep redefining it with your hammer as you crush it on the small end and work to the open end. You can also partially close the large open end first and it helps keep the shape more defined. Once you start hammering tucks and getting them to work you will visually be able to see the tuck when it loses it self and when it does do a good shrink. Dutch

[Peter Miles]

Spectacular illustration, Mike.

I think that rotating it 180 so that you see the open end would help prevent novices from experiencing the optical illusion that they might be seeing a 'trough' there instead of a 'ridge'.

Stare at it long enough - it's cheap entertainment for a Saturday night...............

Again, very nice work, everyone.

[Peter Miles]

totally off topic,

Looking at my previous post here, I noticed that I'm now being listed as a "Master Member". I certainly didn't promote myself.

I'm really a novice, but I've been a member for a year or so and doing a fair amount of posting.

What caused my change in status, and can we change it back to something more appropriate for my metalbashing skill level?

Thanks, Peter

[Dick Bear]

Peter,

I've gotten a kick out of the auto-promotion system over the last few months, as well. It seems this site is the only place were your level of proficiency is confused with how many times you asked a question or shared a photograph.

I've gone from the "beginning level whatever" to a Sr. Member and I'm just now beginning to see a flicker of light ... way out in the distance as far as metalshaping is concerned.

Maybe the level designations should be based on the level of participation rather than the current assumption of accomplishment since that is what is really being counted.

It's really no big deal but I (and I assume you) feel a bit uncomfortable being designated as Senior or Master at something that I know I'm only a beginner at even though I've asked questions and attempted to participate in the discussions.

May I suggest perhaps: Inactive Member (which accounts for most members in the 2000+ group) Kind-of- Active, Moderately Active and extending up to "Hyper Active"! (Just kidding on the last level)

I'm dreading the Master's designation — hope this post doesn't push me over the top!

Dick Bear

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Peter and Dick,

The rankings are part of the software, based on how many contributions you make to the community. They don't reflect skill levels.

I think they can be turned off if they are an annoyance.

I had nothing to do with it, :D I'll have to ask David Miller
( our webmaster) what he thinks.

Wray

[Wray Schelin]

Folks,

I figured out how to delete the "member rankings" . They are gone.

There is no way to apply a rank for skill level unless it is done custom on a one by one basis. The previous rankings system was a reflection of the number of posts not skill level .

Well, now that is over with I guess the folks that hated to be charcterized as "junior members" will be posting like mad. :wink:


Wray

[Dick Bear]

Wray,

Hope I didn't upset you by my post, but if the result is that those previously designated as Jr. Memebers etc., "post like mad" the result is exactly what we've stated we want to achieve in membership participation. That's a good thing and we all hope you are right, right!!

Dick Bear — an member interested in becoming a better metalshaper with the help of all members of our site.

[toolmanMike]

Wray,

The software to do this kind of thing is more than CAD (2D). It's generically referred to as "solid modeling" (3D). Examples that come to mind are Pro-E, SolidWorks, SolidEdge, and Inventor. I would think any of these would be able to generate this graphic.

Low-end CAD starts around $200 and goes up from there. Solid modelers typically start around $3500. Some or all will have free 30-day demos you can download to try out. I would strongly suggest anyone considering spending the big bucks first spend at least a 100-hours with the demo. It can be extraoridinarly tedious and arcane.

How long did it take me to crank out the tuck? If I'd started out knowing exactly what a "tuck" was it would have taken me an hour or two.

Off hand I'm not sure how I'd model the individual hammer blows and the related deformation. I'll have to scratch my head on that one for a while. In the mean time if I can get you to tell me which view is most appropriate for us beginners I'll at least map the blows similar to what you did in your hand sketch.

My feeling is that a choreographed sequence of 39-closeup still shots would best show the transformation of a tuck being flattened out. Perhaps 78-stills: 39 showing the hammer in each little dent and 39 showing the closeup of just the dents. That would make a cool slide show.

I'll start watching the CAD forum. I'd be glad to help if I can.

Don't forget to give me some input on which tuck view to use.


http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3301/2015tuck2-med.jpg

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Mike,

The way you have the tuck now is the way you usually look at a tuck when crushing it. You can reduce the number of blows; my drawing was for a very large tuck ( 6" - 8" long). Your illustration looks to be a
medium sized ( 3"-4" tuck) which will have less blows. I'll make a similar sized tuck today and count the number of actual blows.

Thanks for the offer o help out in the CAD forum. I hope that forum starts to get busy. :D I'll have some questions for you soon. :D

Wray

[Dick Bear]

Wray,

Approx. how wide at the mouth is the tuck and also how high? I understand from the illustration and your comments about the 70 degrees but the width and height are a question.

Thanks, Dick Bear

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Dick,

The size of the tuck depends on how big you make it. Tucks are scaleable. You could make tucks 12" long if you were strong enough or 1/4" long. How big they are depends on how much material you need to shrink and the size/strength of the tucking tool.

Tucks are more of a process-shrinking. If you need to shrink a area you just take tucks in that area until it shrinks the desireable amount. It is the same deal with stretching. If you need to stretch an area you pound it out till you arrive at the dersired shape. In both circumstances you need to follow a pattern to make the shape changes flow rather than be concentrated all in one spot.

Wray

[Dick Bear]

Hi Wray,

That makes sense but I was trying to get a mental picture of what the relationship might be between a the height and the width of the mouth on say a 4" long tuck.

Am I right in assuming that the tuck and flattening process would be repeated until the degree of shrinking desired is achieved?

I've found the shrinking process to be my greatest problem of all. Consequently I'm trying to gather as much information concerning that process as possible.

Dick Bear

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Wray,

That makes sense but I was trying to get a mental picture of what the relationship might be between a the height and the width of the mouth on say a 4" long tuck.

Hi Dick,

Height and width really don't matter. They can vary from the "ideal'
and you still will get results. ( a typical 4" deep tuck will be about 1" wide and 1"tall at the edge. )

Am I right in assuming that the tuck and flattening process would be repeated until the degree of shrinking desired is achieved?


Yes, but you should planish the area out after several tucking sessions or you will risk overworking the metal and causing it to crack.



I've found the shrinking process to be my greatest problem of all. Consequently I'm trying to gather as much information concerning that process as possible.


Shrinking is as easy as stretching but you first have to accept the fact the metal will do what you want it to do, as long as you don't overwork it . Planishing will insure against overworking.


Wray

[Dick Bear]

Wray,

See, once again I've gained information I hadn't seen or had simply overlooked. PLANNISH between process to avoid overworking the material and perhaps causing cracking.

Amazing! THANKS, I can't wait to try it 'cause each time I looked at a panel that was going to require any degree of shrinking I was demoralized before I even began. I would do it but there wasn't much joy being expressed on my part in the process.

Dick Bear

[Gene_Olson]

The plannish part is also important with the nonferrous stuff too.

Sure, the stuff anneals and gets and gets very soft, but if you haven't plannished it before annealling, the first blows will start work hardening it and the stress induced will collect in the points of sharp curvature and it will eventually crack there. If you plannish first, you get a nice uniform relaxed surface to work with after the anneal.

G.

[Dutch Comstock]

Anytime you are doing a large shrink or also a large stretch you will rough work the panel by stretching or shrinking untill the panel strts to get knotted up.The surface of the panel is now bound up and has to be relaxed by planishing.Even if you are power shrinking or power stretching into a rubber die you have to planish to relax the surface and this also allows you to pattern the part to give you and idea of how you are coming along.A couple of other things are the metal we are using ,Standard stamping grade steel 1008 likes to flow in either direction.It is just harder to hand control the shrink as you have to hit the correct spot each time and when you are stretching it works good when you only get close to the aimed hit.After you have done a few panels doing tuck shrinking you will know when you have lost the tuck and also you see the angle shrinks as stress lines when you planish them out. Dutch

[toolmanMike]

Wray,

You need to check the pattern. I don't think it's exactly right but it's as close as I could guess.

In the final cut I'll throw in a 6" scale for reference.

Mike

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3301/2015tuck_pattern.jpg

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Mike ,

That looks perfect. :D One element that is missing is the hammer angle. The backbone strikes are done at a right angle to the tuck. The side strikes are done pararell to the tuck. The side strikes help to keep the tuck angle at the desirable steep angle. The backbone strikes actually crush the metal into itself.

Wray

[Dave1967]

Wray,

I have just noticed that your plastic hammer ends are 90' to each other, When you hit No1 your at 90' to the tuck do your use the other end to hit No2&3 and continue through the tuck switching hammer ends in that manner.
This is a great post that is helping lots so thanks everyones input.

Dave

[Kerry Pinkerton]

One of the MANY things I learned watchng Dutch last week was how to REALLY tuck shrink. I'd been doing it the hard way. Dutch will use the chisel to steepen the angle by hitting it along the 'fold', then he crimps the mouth to trap the bubble. He calls it "closing the rat hole" Just so you don't fold the metal over. This keeps the bubble from just flattening out.

The end result is that my tuck shrinking is at least twice as efficient as it was before.