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View Full Version : south bend 10L ( HEAVY 10) MACHINING QUESTION


tbody321
04-20-2011, 05:58 AM
Hopefully Im not off topic but we do use lathes to make our own tooling for metalshaping, so I may be im ok for posting.

I have purchased a south bend lathe 10L and want to buy the correct tooling needed to be able to machine, steel, brass and aluminum. there are many options out there, many places I can try and get answers on other forums but would rather try here.
I would like to use insert style tooling. Any help would be appreciated and if you would like, PM me and we can discuss that way.
thank you, Tony C.

shortbus
04-20-2011, 08:50 AM
This is going to cause flaming I'm sure, but here goes:D

Since this is a plain bearing lathe(headstock not ball bearing) your best bet on cutting tools is to stick with high speed steel and brazed carbide for harder stuff. Some people claim that the only thing to use is insert style carbide tooling. But because of the speed and rigidity limitations of old lathes, it's not worth the expense to use insert tooling.

Another thing people say is that you need a 'quick change tool post'. That's BS, a 'lantern tool post' and tool holders will do any and every thing you need. And do some things even better. If you were doing production type work the expense would be worth it, but then you wouldn't have this type of lathe either.

Have fun with your new toy, cary

tbody321
04-20-2011, 09:41 AM
thanks for the reply. I did get PM from member with very good explination and views. I have quick change tooling set-up, have used the carbide brazed tip and have had some chip off, dont know how to cut my own bits, could learn, but would like something simpler.
If there is an indexible bit, with good quality holder that cover a few different materials, then Ide be a happy camper. Im not making high precision pieces or production work.
thanks again, Tony c.

jlrussell4
04-20-2011, 10:08 AM
Since this is a plain bearing lathe(headstock not ball bearing) your best bet on cutting tools is to stick with high speed steel and brazed carbide for harder stuff. Some people claim that the only thing to use is insert style carbide tooling. But because of the speed and rigidity limitations of old lathes, it's not worth the expense to use insert tooling.




I was going to say the same thing. Only I have never used the insert type tool holders, so I though maybe I wasn't qualified to comment - I can't compare both styles. I always say I use HSS cutters, but the ones I use are the ones with a cobalt alloy. They are not hard to learn how to prepare for cutting and they are inexpensive. Google is your friend here. If you look at a good selection of inserts you will see that the selection is mind boggling. I do use both the lantern and my QC tool post holder. I like my QC holder a lot, but sometimes it's simpiler to just use the lantern.

No matter what you cut with, I'm sure you are going to really enjoy your new tool.

bob haverstock
04-20-2011, 10:54 AM
Tony,

I would think that you are looking at positive rake tooling as the lathe is low powered. If you stall the spindle, usually the positive rake carbide tooling will break when the torque on the spindle is relaxed. This also happens with negiative rake tooling on large lathes. I would recommend that you start with 5/16 sq. HSS tool bits, a dozen will last many years. You don't need the expense of qualified tooling (precision inserts). With a 10 inch lathe you won't see any cost savings using carbide and you have no need of anything large that a 1/4 IC insert, but 3/8 IC insert tend to cost less.

Us cheapskates use carbide when we are cutting hardened steel or similar material.

The little SBL just doesn't have the power to utilize carbide. BTW, you will enjoy the capabilties of a lathe.

Bob Haverstock

Tin Head
04-20-2011, 11:22 AM
Brazed carbide is mostly a waste of money unless you can sharpen them. I have a bunch from when I first started with my first lathe gathering dust now. Inserts can be changed. What a good insert system along with a QCTP gives you is repeatability. Sure sound like I'm talking about production work, but not really. I don't do production work other than the small number of multiples I may make. I'm sure when you were using a brazed carbide cutter or even HSS cutter, you lost the cutting edge. Do you rough cut and finish with the same cutter? It may be getting quite dull by the time you get to the finish passes. Too bad the finish passes come last in the process. There are lots of other things to think of when talking about repeatability too. Like tool height. Very important, and yes a lantern post can get you there, but a QCTP repeats, once set, with no adjustment. But since you already have that, it's a non issue.

My take is, for the money and most of the cuts you are going to make, a CCMT inserted tool holder with positive rake inserts are hard to beat. There are HSS inserts in that style of insert too. One single SCLC tool holder will net you turning and facing without any tool orientation changes needed. Sure, lots of HSS/Cobalt tool blanks should be in your arsenal as well. And with that the ability to grind a special cutter or just keep them sharp. Add to that the knowledge from the past about cutter geometry. Get the South Bend How to run a lathe book if you don't already have one. Then add to that knowledge a good understanding of feeds and speeds whether we're talking HHS or carbide.

Doug98105
04-20-2011, 11:31 AM
This is my experience with a couple small manual lathes and two CNC lathes running production work.

All the tooling for all the lathes is the same carbide insert tooling. 1/2" square shank insert holders.

For most turning and boring CCMT style inserts, 80 degree diamond. The 80 degree insert can face and turn without resetting (triangle inserts can't do that).

For general turning of steels including stainless a positive rake, coated cermet grade insert. Cermet works in hard or softer material, even at slow speeds.

For soft material, plastic, aluminum, brass, etc a high positive rake, polished insert.

Once in awhile a special profile cutter is made of high speed steel for a short run if no insert will do the job.

I don't remember ever having any luck with brazed carbide. They generally have a zero top rake and no chip breaker which is not good on low horse power machines. Besides, if you need to sharpen them you need a diamond wheel.

A lot of the bias against carbide goes back to the days when it wasn't the best choice for low speed, low powered machines. New carbide is totally different. In the past you'd hear people say carbide couldn't have as sharp a cutting edge as high speed, the high positive carbide are as sharp as anyone can grind high speed.

If you prefer high speed steel there's a company making inserts interchangeable with the common carbide styles.

Richard K
04-20-2011, 03:02 PM
I have owned and used a South Bend 10 L for 42 years. It was used for 28 years before that. The flat belt limits the amount of power to the spindle. I took mine apart about 20 years back and cut a vee belt groove in the second largest cone pulley. Used a link type vee belt to get around the casting. Mounted a 2hP 1725 motor in the pedastal and hooked it all to a big vfd. Also got a big pump oiler and mounted it near the headstock. Then I got a load of carbide insert tooling and began to get things done.

The lathe was accurate when I got it. I set it up carefully, lubricate it like crazy and run it hard and fast. When using carbide you need to take aggressive cuts at proper speeds and feeds (fast). Properly used carbide will move fast and keep the heat from the cut out of the work and get it away in the chip. I've cut 8 pitch threads on 2" dia steel. Plenty of power.

Keep it lubed and go at it. The plain bearings are just fine. Your car engine likely has plain bearings on the crankshaft and connecting rods and piston pins' Those engines spin at 3,000 RPM (more or less) for a quarter million miles with an occasional oil change. Sure, the oil is under pressure; but the load is far more than a 10 inch lathe will ever see. My lathe is still dead on accurate.

The brazed carbide tool bits are not of much use. Insert tooling is expensive initially, but cost effective in the long run. I look for odd lots of inserts that I can get at a bargain price; 20 to 100 inserts at a buck each is Cheap. I also keep my eye open for odd bits of insert toolholders; shanks, clamps, pads, screw and etc. When I find a batch of bargain inserts; I make up holders for them. A large hex block in the mill vise equipped with clamp bolt holes allows easy milling of 60 degree pockets for the inserts. Add a clamp and screw and you are good to go. A diamond hone (hand held) will renew a edge on an insert if it is not chipped.

For roughing out work I have made up a tool block that fits on my AXA tool block dovetail that has a pocket for a plain triangle insert with a slight radiused corner and zero clearance. Machine the pocket to tip the insert slightly forward. With the insert direct on the post it is a very rigid setup.

On occasion, I still like to use HSS cutters for a fine close tolerance job. You can get them super sharp with diamond and arkansas stones. Then you can shave of a few tenths if necessary.

Lantern tool posts and armstrong holders are weak. Just simpley too much overhang. A Aloris type holder puts the cutting edge close to the compound pivot; reduces any chance for flex. For larger boring bars I made a bar holder to replace the compound entirely. For large drilling make a holder that centers a drill chuck on the compound pivot and use the power feed. Large drills cause trouble mainly because they are fed in little jerky spurts by cranking the tailstock.

captainkirk
04-21-2011, 01:31 PM
I have two Heavy Tens and I like the High Speed Steel insert tooling because it's less prone to fracture than the carbide and the finish is better in my opinion at the slower speeds.

The guy that I think makes the best tooling and inserts is Arthur R. Warner Co. out of Latrobe Pa.

www.arwarnerco.com (724-539-3502) is the web site listed on one of the boxes that the tooling is stored in.

The quality is exceptional in my opinion and a really good way to go with the Heavy Tens.

Cheers and good luck with whatever you decide to go with......

Kirk

Tin Head
04-21-2011, 07:19 PM
The flat belt limits the amount of power to the spindle. I took mine apart about 20 years back and cut a vee belt groove in the second largest cone pulley. Used a link type vee belt to get around the casting.

I might add to this that a serpentine belt will fix the slipping on those lathes. A lot of the South Bend folks are making a glue joint by slicing the belt at a low angle and glueing it back together on the flat pulleys after trimming it to the proper length. I'm led to believe it holds up well and adds some more torque to the small South Bends.

I replaced the broken flat belt on my Monarch 10EE with a serpentine belt, but turned the grooves away from the pulleys. Probably never need to change it again.

Arthur R. Warner Co. carries the CCMT style inserts in HSS called CCMW I believe and has nice sets of holders. Made in the good ole US of A. And they make special HHS bits on request. HSS is the best way, IMO, to go when you need a certain shape, like bull nose, inside or outside radius, etc. Grind them when you need them, pay Warners or your local grind shop. Use both ends of those bits and you'll have lots of special shapes. I've got about a hundred of them now. So, times two, they give me 200 shapes. Them bigger shapes are going to chatter, so that's where less rigid setups will sometimes work nicely.

Funny thing about carbide inserts, I was peeling about .200" (.400" on diameter) per pass off of some UHMW for hammer heads. Very aggressive feed rate so I was getting chips, not strings. The finish was like polished. Then I get to the finish pass needing to take off about .007" to .010" and the finish sucked. I didn't change the feed rate to load the cutter sufficiently, couldn't really as it was already fast. Ended up changing to a sharp HHS cutter and getting another couple thou to clean it up. Should have done that at the start of the finish pass. Those to me are the best lessons.

bobadame
04-21-2011, 08:51 PM
I use both high speed steel and carbide inserts. The steel is easy to grind for plunging angles or radii. Pay attention to the angles required for different materials. they vary a lot. Brass needs a flat top rake, aluminum likes about 16 degrees top rake so does stainless. For cutting mild steel I use carbide inserts running about 300 surface feet per minute without any coolant. The finish comes out slick and accurate with no tearing. Might as well learn to use both. They both have their advantages.

captainkirk
04-22-2011, 03:46 AM
I might add to this that a serpentine belt will fix the slipping on those lathes. A lot of the South Bend folks are making a glue joint by slicing the belt at a low angle and glueing it back together on the flat pulleys after trimming it to the proper length. I'm led to believe it holds up well and adds some more torque to the small South Bends.

I replaced the broken flat belt on my Monarch 10EE with a serpentine belt, but turned the grooves away from the pulleys. Probably never need to change it again.

Arthur R. Warner Co. carries the CCMT style inserts in HSS called CCMW I believe and has nice sets of holders. Made in the good ole US of A. And they make special HHS bits on request. HSS is the best way, IMO, to go when you need a certain shape, like bull nose, inside or outside radius, etc. Grind them when you need them, pay Warners or your local grind shop. Use both ends of those bits and you'll have lots of special shapes. I've got about a hundred of them now. So, times two, they give me 200 shapes. Them bigger shapes are going to chatter, so that's where less rigid setups will sometimes work nicely.

Funny thing about carbide inserts, I was peeling about .200" (.400" on diameter) per pass off of some UHMW for hammer heads. Very aggressive feed rate so I was getting chips, not strings. The finish was like polished. Then I get to the finish pass needing to take off about .007" to .010" and the finish sucked. I didn't change the feed rate to load the cutter sufficiently, couldn't really as it was already fast. Ended up changing to a sharp HHS cutter and getting another couple thou to clean it up. Should have done that at the start of the finish pass. Those to me are the best lessons.

The last cut at those depths wasn't deep enough to "get under" the surface so the tool was alternately cutting and not cutting giving the bad surface finish.
When you are starting your first cuts it helps to do a few test finish cuts to begin with on the material that your going to remove anyway. This way you will know what the final pass depth and speed needs to be to get the finish you want.
The only thing it won't take into account is tool wear up to the final cut causing it to dull slightly, but most times this won't be significant enough to cause a final finish issue.

By any chance do you have any information about what type of glue to use to bond the serpentine belts back together...the ideal answer would be a short procedure and glue type if possible as I want to try it.

Kirk

jlrussell4
04-22-2011, 04:31 AM
Kirk, Bob,

I checked out Warner's web site. Looks like nice stuff, but no prices. Are the holders and cutters about the same price as carbide stuff? Also, will the carbide and HSS cutters interchange to the holders? I would think the CCM-- styles should, but I want to hear it from someone who has tried it. ;)

On edit: Doug already answered that last question.

Tin Head
04-22-2011, 05:43 AM
The last cut at those depths wasn't deep enough to "get under" the surface so the tool was alternately cutting and not cutting giving the bad surface finish.
When you are starting your first cuts it helps to do a few test finish cuts to begin with on the material that your going to remove anyway. This way you will know what the final pass depth and speed needs to be to get the finish you want.
The only thing it won't take into account is tool wear up to the final cut causing it to dull slightly, but most times this won't be significant enough to cause a final finish issue.

By any chance do you have any information about what type of glue to use to bond the serpentine belts back together...the ideal answer would be a short procedure and glue type if possible as I want to try it.

Kirk

Yea, I'm learning this stuff as I go. Never been a machinist...or a metal shaper for that matter. This machining stuff is in my blood now though.

Here's a quote about the serpentine belt install from PM (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/dont-delay-do-serpentine-belt-fix-today-157227/).

"I installed a serpentine on a SB 13 a few weeks ago, 1 5/8" wide leather belt broke and needed lathe working right away. The only belt I had handy was from a F150 truck, the belt was well used with about 60K miles on it and only 1" wide. Used Loctite Super Glue for All Plastics, layed end of belt on a block of wood and used a belt grinder to taper both ends. No jigs just glue(be sure to wear rubber gloves) clamp between two big pieces of HSS with C clamps for a while and let dry for a few hours. I considered it a temporary repair since the belt was worn and too small but as it is, it works about 10 times as well as one it replaced. Smooth and quiet, I think I could use it as a lifting sling for machinery (maybe not) Considering how little time it took and the glue was less than three bucks, very pleased with the result and it may last for years.

Sam
Sottof Sales"

Jim,

On the Warner site, look at the kits and then pick one of the choices between turning, boring, profile, etc at the bottom of the page. Then make a choice of size/style. The page will open showing more info along with the insert prices. Here's a link (http://www.arwarnerco.com/warner_products_kits_turning_k10.html) to one. By the way, they have a useful insert identification chart link on that page as well.

jlrussell4
04-22-2011, 06:09 AM
Thanks Bob. I guess I just didn't click enough of those pictures :).