Need Help / Turning radius jacked up on 33 Panel Truck

[1932Plymouth]

:DHey everyone, All input on this is welcomed as I need a FIX!:confused:
I have this 33 Dodge panel that a few years ago I spotted in place a T.C.I. Stainless Front Suspension and I had a certified welder TIG the cross member in place for me. ( I have 1 inch square tubing in place of the coil overs just to set ride height )
The guy who sold me the front end said it was the one for my application, but was made for 33/34 Fords. ( :o 1 st mistake )
Well I didn't check the turning radius until It was welded in. ( :o 2 nd mistake )
It has a rear steer Mustang II manual rack in it. I opted to get away from the power steering and that might not have been a good idea. ( :o 3 rd mistake )
Someone told me a Dodge Omni rack would work and get me a little more but I can't find one here in the sticks. Do any of you folks know about swapping the Ford Manual Rack for a Dodge Omni manual rack?
The wheelbase is 119 inches. And I would say turning from the side lines of a football field it will take 1/3 the distance across the field to turn completely around with out backing up.
This is the best picture I have at the moment as the chassis is 854 miles away from me but I hope to have it back in February. It all has to come back apart any way to get cleaned up and painted.
Bottom line is I dropped $3650 on this set up ( which is nice ) but I've never had a ride of any sort with this bad of turning radius. If I unhook the rack I can get more ( tighter ) turning radius.
I put a Heidt's in a 32 Plymouth and it worked out great and was a beauty. The TCI looked to be a little stronger made to me for this application. That was the reason I decided to go with the TCI.
Any help is greatly appreciated to get this problem fixed.
Cutting this out is not a option!

Mike

[redhumphries]

may not be of any help but alot of times the manufacturers of these front ends use the racks that are mounted on the firewall of later model cars that have longer steering arms and when moved closer to the spindle it shortenes the radius. I used an ommni rack on a 55 t bird and it really didn't have a great radius either. If you call fatman fabrications and ask tim or phillip maybe they can help they make front kits specificlly designed for individual cars. They are nice guys and so is Brent the owner maybe they can give you an idea it may be hard to get help since it isn't one of their front ends. Hope it helps RED fatman fab phone # 704-545-0369

[1932Plymouth]

Thanks Red,
That's my 1 st option. Attaching to the firewall is out though. I have got enough figuring out to do just getting brake peddle and steering shaft to work with the HEMI in it using stock manifolds and stock starter location also.
Thanks again and this I will do.

Mike

[TheRodDoc]

I didnt know TCI made a rear rack kit for 33 34 fords.

If they dont and you welded the crossmrmber in backwards that's the problem. their spindles or mustang spindles wont work backwards because of wrong steering arm location. also any geometry angles built into the crossmember will be backwards .

[1932Plymouth]

Doc,
No, its not in backwards. This is not the first front suspension I have ever installed but probably will be the last TCI. Look at the picture of the chassis. I bought the kit off of a Vendor who actually works for TCI and does some of the welding on the products. I spent 3 weeks trying to get this right. Many email, back and forth because it was for a Ford and not a Dodge/ Plymouth. This is the last problem I wanted to run into. Had it been a Power assembly it might have worked out but I was trying to avoid having to buy a Chevy Power Steering Pump as the Chrysler Pressure is to high to work on the Ford Rack. Street & Performance says the pump pressure will blow the seals.
I do have some front end pictures on another computer. Many details, side shots, underside, etc... I will try to post them later this week.
Here you go Doc. Here is a link to the same unit bought and its rear steer. This is a different guy but exact same unit with all the polished goodies. And I'm not promoting this for them either.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/33-34-Independent-Front-Suspension-TCI-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem483e3e494dQQitemZ31028 1914701QQptZVintageQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccess ories

Mike

[whateg01]

Made for Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Goat,... doesn't matter. The only real difference in most of these "kits" is how the crossmember is cut to fit the frame. The only way that I could see a vehicle difference affecting the turning radius is if the tire was rubbing the frame.

I can't imagine spending $3600 on any IFS. That seems pretty steep. On to the question, though... What do the spindles look like? If they are billet, or fab'd, you might be able to shorten the steering arm to get more movement from the existing rack. If they are forged or cast, that won't work. Doing so also comes with tradeoffs, such as increased feedback and harder turning. Anyway, it's a thought, though it may not be the best idea.

TCI has been doing this for awhile and seems way too popular for their kits to not work. You might check out some of the classic car/truck forums and see what experience others have had and what tricks they used.

Also, on a side note, I don't get what many folks have against MII front ends for their trucks. MOST of the trucks these kits go into will NEVER see a day of work in their life. As such, they probably weigh less than the MII the front end was designed for.

Dave

[1932Plymouth]

Dave,
I understand what you are saying. But I think the rack is outta wack! When the pivot points on the tie rods line up, ackerman wise to the upper and lower control arms, the number of turns right to left is equal to 40% 1 way and 60% the other there by leaving the wheels at different angles to the frame when they reach the stop point. Another words it turns tighter 1 way than the other. If the rack is unhooked I can get a tighter turning radius either way. Even get close enough for the tire to rub. As for the cost, I bought all polished stainless pieces, large rotors, Alladin Coil Over Polished Shocks, and Torsion or Stabilizer bar set up. I can now see how people can get so much $$$$ tied up in a project. Especially if they are paying some one else to do the work. Its no different with metal shaping. You pay for the skills or the fruits of the skills some one has to offer.
As for the Mustang II, that's what is in my 34 roadster pick up. Works great. I just had sold my 32 , 3 window Plymouth coupe and thought it would be nice to buy a kit like this once since the panel was unusual any way and with a 5.7 Hemi to top it off. I drive my stuff. If its going to stay in the garage I might as well sell it.
I had to remove the center of the frame ( X -member ) so that Hemi would fit. Had a friend with a tubing bender bend roll cage tubing to weld in for tranny support. Boxed the outer frame rails with 1/16th plate to reinforce it because the length of the frame.
I'm fairly happy with every thing but the turning radius and was just wondering if some else had any ideas what else would work in place of the M II rack.

Thank you for your input:)

Mike

[godspeed]

It looks like you got the wrong (lookin' for the right term) arms that bolted to the spindles... What you have looks nothing like the mustang spindles that I have seen or used?? They look like the kind of spindle that is used on Ibeams or straight axles (Yes they are 'redesigned' for A arms w/ balljoints).
It might be that you can get the shorter arms that bolt in...

[CARS]

All I can offer to this subject is that you are not the only one.

A couple years ago I did a '68 Plymouth RoadRunner and the owner installed a rack and pinion kit. My god that thing took a football field to turn around in!! It was an engineered kit to "improve handling and feel". Ya, sure...

Hope you get it sorted out.

[Jacob]

Give us a few measurements:
You said the wheel base is 114" right?
What is the width of the front track?
how far back is the steering rack from the centerline of the front pivot points?
How long is the steering arm, measured from pivot to center of outer joint?
How much travel are you getting in your rack end-to-end (lock-to-lock)?
Maybe there is something that can be changed in the geometry that can help.
The closer you can get the rack to the line that is directly between the pivots the more range of motion you can get per inch of rack travel.
Shorter steering arms help too, but increase steering effort.

[oldgoaly]

I was curious what TCI engineering had on their website about the turning radius... FAQ's and search of the website came back with no results. So how do you establish a baseline? tt;)

[ram-rod]

Hi Mike down here in Australia we take the rack apart and get some more teeth cut in to the slide it is sometimes needed depending on how the rack is shortened

Ian H

[1932Plymouth]

Thanks everyone for all this input!
I knew after lurking here in metalmeet.com that the answers are here but only when the questions are ask! I like the idea of cutting more teeth into the rack. Ian, its been a while since I spoke with you. 4 maybe 5 years. I talked with Dirk last week. Seems he has a new 33 sedan project.
"Oldgoaly", I did the same thing when I ran into the situation and could find nothing pertaining to this subject.
Jacob, I will get these measurements from my son who has possession of the chassis at this point and get back with the figures.
Cars, Thanks I knew I wasn't the only one ever to face this problem. I know people who have done the TCI installs with much success. So what did you do to remedy the problem, or did you?
godspeed, the set up is like the Ford with cam action for setting camber on the upper control arm. These Stainless Arms, upper and lower is part of the major cost I was inflicted with. ( You never learn to ride a bicycle if you never fall off ). As for the comparison of the spindles to M II I never thought much about it not being designed to be similar to M II.
Shorter Arms ! That might be the fix I need. I never thought of that. But the question would be, How much shorter and would it effect cornering very much. The torsion bar was a big point to me as having a top heavy body I wanted to minimize body roll as much as I could.
Here are some more pictures when i was spotting in place, as I said I would post.
I do not have any more of it at this time. I will get some more.

Thank Again All
Mike Tipton

__________________________________________________ _____________

Life is great when you are on the working end of a panel beater!:p

[anders nørgaard]

...Shorter Arms ! That might be the fix I need. I never thought of that. But the question would be, How much shorter and would it effect cornering very much. ...

Hi Mike,
Nice looking crossmember :)
To obtain a correct Ackermann trapez, the steering arms at the spindles should be angled inwards at an angle that makes the imaginary line of their extensions intersect in the centre of the rear axle!!

You can determine the LENGTH of the steering arm by pulling the steering ball from the spindle.
Turn/swing/rotate the "released" wheel inward app. 35 deg. (at the front end of the car)
Turn your steering wheel max travel to the same side of course.
Find the point at the steering arm in which the centre of the steering ball will intersect. That's how long the arm should be.

Hard for a stupid, unknowing Dane to explain, but feel free to ask questions, if this doesn't make sense :D

[godspeed]

That's a good point Anders... The steering arm can be 'shortened' as long as the ball joint hole follows the imaginary line. The shorter arm will make the steering faster and turn the wheels tighter.

A great book to check out is The chasis builders handbook. I think thats the right name. It's advertised in the back of Jegs catalogs and others

[bumbler]

If the rack is unhooked I can get a tighter turning radius either way. Even get close enough for the tire to rub.
If this is the case perhaps centering the rack for equal turning radius (wheel angle) will solve much of your problem, even if you have to extend or shorten one end of the rack to keep the steering links equal. Then you can look into the shorter steering arms to quicken the steering and make the radius even smaller. Different racks are made for a specific side top side location on the chassis.

Bruce:)

[1932Plymouth]

Bruce,
I can't change the location of the rack as the pivot points of the tie rods on the rack will effect the ackerman as they are geometrically in the right location. Parallel with the pivot points between the upper and lower control arm bosses. So it seems the best fix will be to add teeth to the Rack Cylinder.


Anders,

To obtain a correct Ackermann trapez, the steering arms at the spindles should be angled inwards at an angle that makes the imaginary line of their extensions intersect in the centre of the rear axle!!
What if it intersects directly above the center line of the rear axle assembly? Does this mean you can't move the intersecting point forward for a sharper turning radius?
I know that tire drag will result with to much angular change as 1 wheel will move more than the other the more extreme the arc of the turning radius is.


You can determine the LENGTH of the steering arm by pulling the steering ball from the spindle.
Turn/swing/rotate the "released" wheel inward app. 35 deg. (at the front end of the car)
Turn your steering wheel max travel to the same side of course.
Find the point at the steering arm in which the centre of the steering ball will intersect. That's how long the arm should be.
This is sounding more and more like machining the rack center cylinder is going to be the way its going to have to be done to fix the problem. As everything else seems to be correct at this point.
Of course the rack is a Flaming River. I'm sure TCI buy's these from them as many units as they sell.
1 thing I have found is the rubber boots / sleeves that cover the ends of the tie rods at the rack do not weather well as mine have split in my shop over the last 2 years and have not even seen road use yet.
Anyone willing to take this rack re-machining on out there?
I saw the 37 Chevy chassis build where the guy made his on rack. Man, that chassis is a beauty!

I am trying to get all the measurements still.
The wheel base is 119". This I know. Track width is the same as 74 Mustang II.

Skype from kids coming in, Gotta go for now.
__________________________________________________ ______________
One can never get to much support, and opinions!

Mike Tipton

[1932Plymouth]

:DOne last thing every one.
I know messing with any angles in the steering can have some real bad results so analyzing this from every point is a must before I make changes.
Shorting the steering arms might work," if I can move the rack forward" but I really doubt that I can do this.
Does anyone know of a site out there that compares Rack & Pinion assemblies?

Patch Work on the body.

Merry Christmas All !!!

Mike Tipton

[Kent W.]

Maybe I can be of some help. I have a 1933 Ford 2 Dr with a TCI Custom IFS in it that I installed. It has a Rear-Steer Dodge Omni Manual Rack & Pinion. It is the Show Version with Chrome & Stainless Steel components. All parts came with the kit, including the steering. The Manual Steer Omni Rack & Pinion is an 1982-1987 Dodge Omni with 9/16-26 spline shaft. On the Power Rack & Pinion, it is from a 1982-1987 Dodge Shelby Charger with 3/4-36 spline shaft. In a 1933-1934 Ford frame, the axle centerline of the TCI Custom IFS is moved FORWARD 1/4" per the installation instructions. ALL 1933-1934 Ford TCI CUSTOM IFS have Rear-Steer whether Manual or Power. A real good website to check this is HARTRODS.COM . They have the original installation instructions illustrated, & even have a "Replacement OEM Part Application" showing what parts they use for each kit they sell. Search their web site, it has lots of good information. also, if you have any questions, give "TOM" a call. his phone # is 1-800-979-4278. One more thing, you MUST center your rack & pinion before you hook it up to the steering arms. Turn it all the way to one side till it bottoms, Then count the turns as you turn it all the way the other way till it bottoms. Divide this Number by 2, and you now know how many turns it takes to Center the rack. All of this information is in the TCI Illustrated Installation Instructions. A Mustang II rack & pinion will not work PROPERLY with this IFS. I hope this helps. It may not be Metal-Shaping per say, but what goes on top of this hopefully is. From a fellow Street-Rodder, Have a very blessed & merry Christmas.

[1932Plymouth]

A Mustang II rack & pinion will not work PROPERLY with this IFS. I hope this helps. It may not be Metal-Shaping per say, but what goes on top of this hopefully is. From a fellow Street-Rodder, Have a very blessed & merry Christmas.

Kent, You told me ALL I NEEDED TO KNOW! This guy sold me a kit with the wrong R & P Assembly. Gonna give him a call first. Then call Tom. Thank You very much and I will tell him you sent me.:D:D:D:D:D

Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY BODY!:):):):):)

To every one, I apologize if I deviated to far off the metalmeet.com web site intentions. I very much appreciate ALL opinions and recommendations that I got. I will try to keep my future subjects on metal shaping.;)

[anders nørgaard]

Kent, You told me ALL I NEEDED TO KNOW! This guy sold me a kit with the wrong R & P Assembly. Gonna give him a call first. Then call Tom. Thank You very much and I will tell him you sent me.:D:D:D:D:D

Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY BODY!:):):):):)

To every one, I apologize if I deviated to far off the metalmeet.com web site intentions. I very much appreciate ALL opinions and recommendations that I got. I will try to keep my future subjects on metal shaping.;)

Well... that's what makes this community so GREAT :) :) :)

... you asked your question in the right forum, so I don't see any problem here.

Looking forward to seeing some of your metalshaping... looks like you still need a feww hours of body work :D ;)

[1932Plymouth]

Yes Anders,
Definitely a few hours!
Home made bead roller with fence and radius guide with gears from a 5 hp garden tiller! Gotta make it automated!:)
I got the pictures in backwards but sometimes that's why I have a re-do!

Mike

[1932Plymouth]

This project was on hold for a while. Things got complicated. My son was going to crank the 5.7 HEMI Magnum for me with a S & P wiring harness and computer reprogram but got side tracked also. I will update this post in the not to distant future. Right now I have to finish the 32 Dodge Coupe.:)

[1932Plymouth]

Well I got the chassis and drive train in about the same shape I took it. He was to busy to get the motor running but I did drop another grand on a S & P wiring harness and computer reprogramming for this motor.
I ended up calling the seller who sold the front suspension assembly to me and he suggested I call the people who he buys parts from.
So this is what I did after he gave me the phone number and person he deals with. When I ask about modifying the steering "Rack" by cutting teeth into it to extend the turning radius he got quite for a moment. He told me he did not recommend doing that. Then the simple solution was then given to me.:idea: Remove the steering arm and Move the tie rod boss forward on the steering arm" by drilling it out closer to the spindle axle to increase the turning radius. Not a whole lot but enough to get the turning radius I needed. I informed him the arm wasn't removable. He said I should be able to do that anyway weather or not that section was removable or not.:eek:
Well when I got home last night sure enough there is plenty of metal to re-drill the tie rod boss in the steering arms. Time to get this project on the move.:)

Thanks for the input everyone and I will post the changes when they are made.

Mike

[James(Western Canada)]

Mike: Won't this suggested change alter your ackerman?? Seems like if the correct solution is to change out the rack for the one that the kit was intended to be run with, that is what I would do.......should be able to recover some $$ from the sale of the MII rack........

James

Well I got the chassis and drive train in about the same shape I took it. He was to busy to get the motor running but I did drop another grand on a S & P wiring harness and computer reprogramming for this motor.
I ended up calling the seller who sold the front suspension assembly to me and he suggested I call the people who he buys parts from.
So this is what I did after he gave me the phone number and person he deals with. When I ask about modifying the steering "Rack" by cutting teeth into it to extend the turning radius he got quite for a moment. He told me he did not recommend doing that. Then the simple solution was then given to me.:idea: Remove the steering arm and Move the tie rod boss forward on the steering arm" by drilling it out closer to the spindle axle to increase the turning radius. Not a whole lot but enough to get the turning radius I needed. I informed him the arm wasn't removable. He said I should be able to do that anyway weather or not that section was removable or not.:eek:
Well when I got home last night sure enough there is plenty of metal to re-drill the tie rod boss in the steering arms. Time to get this project on the move.:)

Thanks for the input everyone and I will post the changes when they are made.

Mike

[1932Plymouth]

Well that is what I thought. But it was explained to me that as long as the tie rod boss stayed on the same geometric location as the up and down motion / travel of the stationary plains ( Do not heat and bend the steering arm bend up or down ) the only thing that would be effected was the turning radius. ( Bump Steer would not occur ) As the steering arm tie rod boss was set up for center-line of the rear end center point and by only moving it forward would make the steering react quicker. The king pin inclination hasn't changed, The angular points between the control arm pivot points on the cross member, and ball joints haven't changed. After I thought about it it made sense to me but there may be increased tire wear at low speeds. I'm not a engineer and this is why I sought help on this subject. Does what I say make any sense to yall? I was told they could machine the Tie Rods longer for me when I figured out what I needed but not to exceed the parallel plain of the lower control arm position relative the lower ball joint.:confused:
All input appreciated!

Mike

[1932Plymouth]

:) Finally after a few more days of phone calls and repeating the same scenario over and over, measuring, unhooking and hooking back up, taking more measurements, I think I may have gotten to the bottom of the turning radius problem.:)
Seems that the people who assembled the rack installed a 1" rack extender when it was built for my application but put it on the wrong side. That will balance the turning Right and Left now.
I removed the rack today, cut the wire ties ,pulled the boots back as instructed to check location and Lo and behold the "1 inch extender was on the drivers side instead of the passengers side":eek:.
Why does it make a difference you may ask?:rolleyes: Well the 1 inch geometry change was calculated for the passengers side when the set up was designed for my 119 inch wheelbase. ;)
The original design is for a 34 Ford and not a 33 Dodge ( especially 7 inches longer than normal for a Dodge/Plymouth vehicle ), which is why it had to be "1 inch wider" in the first place.
Now with the turning radius equal,"right to left" the Tie Rod Boss can be safely moved forward on the steering arm 3/4" to 1":cool:. Steering may be a little quicker also. I will leave the original mounting holes until I am able to put it to the full test.
The only thing that "Should occur with the Tie Rod Boss relocation" is in extreme turning ( as far as you can turn right or left ) there may be some tire marks from the inside of the tighest turning radius! I can live with this.

I thank all of you who have made suggestions and given me ideas and input. I'll post progress on the panel as I get further along. Now to fix the rear gears for the 6 speed O.D. transmission.


Mike:newyear:

[jpony645]

Turning Radius
Maybe I can be of some help. I have a 1933 Ford 2 Dr with a TCI Custom IFS in it that I installed. It has a Rear-Steer Dodge Omni Manual Rack & Pinion. It is the Show Version with Chrome & Stainless Steel components. All parts came with the kit, including the steering. The Manual Steer Omni Rack & Pinion is an 1982-1987 Dodge Omni with 9/16-26 spline shaft. On the Power Rack & Pinion, it is from a 1982-1987 Dodge Shelby Charger with 3/4-36 spline shaft. In a 1933-1934 Ford frame, the axle centerline of the TCI Custom IFS is moved FORWARD 1/4" per the installation instructions. ALL 1933-1934 Ford TCI CUSTOM IFS have Rear-Steer whether Manual or Power. A real good website to check this is HARTRODS.COM . They have the original installation instructions illustrated, & even have a "Replacement OEM Part Application" showing what parts they use for each kit they sell. Search their web site, it has lots of good information. also, if you have any questions, give "TOM" a call. his phone # is 1-800-979-4278. One more thing, you MUST center your rack & pinion before you hook it up to the steering arms. Turn it all the way to one side till it bottoms, Then count the turns as you turn it all the way the other way till it bottoms. Divide this Number by 2, and you now know how many turns it takes to Center the rack. All of this information is in the TCI Illustrated Installation Instructions. A Mustang II rack & pinion will not work PROPERLY with this IFS. I hope this helps. It may not be Metal-Shaping per say, but what goes on top of this hopefully is. From a fellow Street-Rodder, Have a very blessed & merry Christmas.

Kent, You told me ALL I NEEDED TO KNOW! This guy sold me a kit with the wrong R & P Assembly. Gonna give him a call first. Then call Tom. Thank You very much and I will tell him you sent me.:D:D:D:D:D

Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY BODY!:):):):):)

To every one, I apologize if I deviated to far off the metalmeet.com web site intentions. I very much appreciate ALL opinions and recommendations that I got. I will try to keep my future subjects on metal shaping.;)

What about the determination that you had the wrong rack in your kit? I would much rather replace the rack if it's wrong than go drilling into the spindle arm. :eek:

[1932Plymouth]

What about the determination that you had the wrong rack in your kit? I would much rather replace the rack if it's wrong than go drilling into the spindle arm. :eek:
Well "Tim" sold me the Polished Stainless kit for the 34 Ford. He assured me this is the right Manual Rack but my application required 1 inch widening. I.E. 1" rack extender comes into play. It changed the centering of the rack (due to being on the wrong side ) in relationship to the centerline of the upper and lower control arm geometry. It turned out the RACK EXTENDER was on the wrong side.
I tried to swap them around last night and have ran into more problems. The collars are Loc-Tited to the Rack. Tim recommended heating the collars slightly before removing them with a pipe wrench which I did. The Drivers side came off with slight resistance ( felt like it tried to gaul in removal ). Apparently the metals are "like" and this is why. The pass side however locked up after 1/4 turn. I've sent him a email.
The problem with moving the rack forward the same amount that the tie rod ends will be moved is the Torsion bar mounts between the rack and cross member. It's not designed to mount the torsion bar in front of the cross member ( although this is something else I am considering ).
I don't know what yours cost new but mine was $3250 with the torsion bar.
He did tell me that the company the supplies the rack does have a power rack now. They didn't at the time I installed mine. I already removed the power pump from the Hemi.
ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS SEEM TO BE BECAUSE THE COMPANY WHO BUILDS THE RACKS BUILT MINE WRONG. I always though if it cost a lot it had to be right. Wrong!

Mike