PDA

View Full Version : Heat treating Thumbnail dies


captainkirk
12-08-2010, 12:33 AM
A number of years ago at either Metal Meet 05 or 06 there was a fellow that was advertising power hammers I believe they were called Aloka Power hammers he also was selling thumbnail dies and I bought a set.
The dies work really well but are a bit to soft and I would like to harden them, does any one remember what steel he said they were made out of? Failing that does anyone have any contact information to ask him?

As I recall he was the fellow that invented the power hammer.

Thanks for any help

Richard K
12-08-2010, 02:45 AM
A number of years ago at either Metal Meet 05 or 06 there was a fellow that was advertising power hammers I believe they were called Aloka Power hammers he also was selling thumbnail dies and I bought a set.
The dies work really well but are a bit to soft and I would like to harden them, does any one remember what steel he said they were made out of? Failing that does anyone have any contact information to ask him?

As I recall he was the fellow that invented the power hammer.

Thanks for any help

Kirk,

Sounds like you are looking for Al Gore who also invented the internet.

I don't remember his name but sold the thing to DAKE; maybe they have some info.

Shopdog power hammers was at the earlier 2003 and 2004 Metalmeets with a series of reciprocating machines although we did not claim to have actually "invented" anything.

The US patent office awarded the Anoka guy a patent in later years. Interestingly. the patent office lists "Shopdog Power Hammers" and " Walter Eckold" and "Pullmax" as representative of "prior art".

Hairy-Neil
12-08-2010, 03:54 AM
As I recall he was the fellow that invented the power hammer.

Thanks for any help

He must be getting on a bit.....:o

There's a waterweel driven power hammer I've seen at a heritage site near Sheffield (UK), the building has a date stone of 1713.

http://www.topforge.co.uk/Buildings/WheelHammer2.swf

captainkirk
12-08-2010, 04:00 AM
He must be getting on a bit.....:o

There's a waterwheel driven power hammer I've seen at a heritage site near Sheffield (UK), the building has a date stone of 1713.


My mistake I meant to say he invented the one that he was showing...I think.

Not the inventor of the power hammer

anders nørgaard
12-08-2010, 04:30 AM
Kirk,

The name of the designer/patent holder is Dennis Borgwarth and it is the Anoka powerhammer

Make a search on Free Patents Online and you'll find it :)

It's here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D571382.html :cool: :D

No mention of die material though :rolleyes:

bobadame
12-08-2010, 06:13 AM
Acording to the site http://www.hotmetalcustoms.com/shrinkingdies.htm They are 4140 hardened steel.

You can reach them here: email@hotmetalengineering.com

Dawai
12-08-2010, 06:34 AM
I thought I invented the guided overhead helve hammer.. (the one that works)
The rest of that cobbled up stuff can't do as much.

Patents.. are for freely sharing your invention-trademark with others by publication. NOW (others) they are supposed to respect your "inventional concepts and not produce your invention for sale". But, the patent office was established to stimulate inventions and allow sharing. Change it seven percent, and they can repatent it, use the wrong wording in your descriptive and they can patent "your concept" in better terminology. Patents also must be published and recorded in each country of use.. ie european patents, USA patents, Oriental..

Patent just the appearance or trademark? and they can copy "your invention" except for the appearance and name.. How thrilled I was to see Pass and Seymour producing my 911-notification switch with my patent description upon it.. Even if they existed in the same country as I? They have better attorneys who can whip my attorneys in court. I went and got a bottle of whiskey, and forgot about patenting anything else. Even more humorous? My partner, he was offered a job with a firm in Atlanta Ga.. you know the one with the seed money, not the idea?

It's 23 degrees here right now.. I think I'll ponder upon this.

Hell.. I might have invented the internet, I've been surfing these forums since they were all dial up bbs. I wanted to be connected to them all at once, and said so.

Perhaps I'll patent the concept of Breathing, all you are infringing upon my rights.
It's not the "thing" but the idea that is valuable. I can do the "thing" a dozen different ways.

bob haverstock
12-08-2010, 06:36 AM
Kirk,

If the dies were mine, I would consider the following. The steel is either air hardening, oil hardening, water hardening, or mild steel. To harden carbon steels the steel is heated to above the critical temperature (at that temperature the steel is no longer magnetic) and quenched.

Air hardening steel is basically quenced in room temperature air. If air hardening steel is quenched in a cold fluid, it will likely crack. If this process doesn't add hardness, it is not an air hardening steel.

The next quenchant to try is oil. Heat to above critical temp. and quench in room temperatue oil continually agitating the the quenchant. Continue to agitate until the part is less that 100 degrees F. If this process doesn't add hardness, the material is neither air hardening or oil hardening.

The third quenchant to try is water. Basically follow the steps for water hardening. If air quenching, oil quenching, or water quenching does not add hardness, then the material may be mild steel.

If it is mild steel, it can be case hardened. The above is given as a very simple description. I didn't go in to drawing, scale creation, or grain size. The processes were given in order thermal shock.

Heck, go talk with a knife maker.

Bob Haverstock

Dawai
12-08-2010, 06:58 AM
Heck, go talk with a knife maker.

Heat treating by oil bathe quenching was my favorite. It gives a pretty rainbow effect upon the gun reciever or knife. The carbons from the oil do some surface hardening. Plus the quick-fire is impressive like the food the Japanese bring to your table ablaze.

NOW, the real knifemakers are using a liquified salt bath. I wired up the controls for one about ten years back. I never knew before that salt melted. Other than ice??

I have a large piece of D2 standing in the corner.. a port-a-band skids on it, a end mill sheds teeth.. Useless as is, I need to anneal it, pack it in alum or a campfire and let it cool slowly.

Dawai
12-08-2010, 07:53 AM
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=7VrXAAAAEBAJ&dq=shopdog

Check out the workings on this "nice overhead helve" published for your enjoyment by the US patent office.. INternal drawings and all..

Now Dang it.. I guess I didn't invent it.. I am also not going to go into business producing them.. just built one with the same (partial) conceptial working principles for my own experimentation. (what the patent office was started for, to share ideas)

I like thier design better than mine.. hmm... I love sharing.

oldgoaly
12-08-2010, 08:04 AM
DC,
Thats Chris Rusch, he is on here, he is the brains behind Baileigh (sorry Shawn;)) Pretty smart guy and the machine is well if my back spasms hadn't gone crazy I'd gave it a good work out. If you get the chance to meet him and try out "the machine" I do believe you will be impressed. tt;)

Dawai
12-08-2010, 08:46 AM
Only HIllbilly improvement I could see? adding in a hydraulic cylinder there under the end of the top lever... Make it a C'frame press also..Also, .550 stroke is Not enough.. make her hammer on down there..

Where does the waffle iron and Coffee maker plug in Shawn?? That thing does darned near everything.. I didn't realize it was "theirs till I looked for a bit".. Kinda like finding your sister on a porno site?? (I don't have a sister).. Ha.. well..

Neato 100mph design.. I am even more impressed with it's clothes off showing the internals..

bobadame
12-08-2010, 08:48 AM
With reference to re-heat treating 4140, I made a motorcycle transmission part from 4140 HT. It was about 35 RC as machined. The client wanted it harder so we annealed it, then hardened it, then tempered it to about 50 RC. I don't recall the exact temperatures, found them on line.

I have a set of those "Hot Metal Customs" thumbnail dies. I bought them for a dedicated shrinker project a couple of years ago. They work really well although I don't have a lot of hours on them. They are pretty basic. If you have a mill I think you could duplicate these in less than a day from some air hardening tool steel. Then harden and draw them back to something reasonable, maybe around 54. This way you don't risk damaging your originals.

captainkirk
12-08-2010, 03:26 PM
Thanks to everyone and if Chris is out there and can chime in on what he remembers them being made of that would be great.
Many thanks for the description of the sequence of figuring out what it might be.

The dies work really well I have no complaints but they are not very hard at all and I would like to maintain them in good condition for a long time.

Thanks again to everyone for the help


(Chris you out there????)

oldgoaly
12-08-2010, 03:47 PM
Kirk,
Dennis Borgwarth was Hot Metal Customs, Loren Richards, RichardK and last but not least PedalCar Ben all came up with versions of a powered hammers.
Chris is Baileigh's inventor/designer, DC has posted a link to the patents to the Baileigh hammer. Sorry for the confusion, but 7-10 years later things do blend together some. tt;)

Dawai
12-08-2010, 04:00 PM
Kirk..

How about making a "dental impression" from Bondo now of the shape..
do you have a milling machine? Ever seen or heard of a tracer attachment?

That would be a way to ensure you have a set even if these take a dump from being too soft.

I've seen some interesting thumbnail dies.. some look like they are a jewelry item.

BAILEIGH INC
12-10-2010, 10:22 AM
Thanks to everyone and if Chris is out there and can chime in on what he remembers them being made of that would be great.
Many thanks for the description of the sequence of figuring out what it might be.

The dies work really well I have no complaints but they are not very hard at all and I would like to maintain them in good condition for a long time.

Thanks again to everyone for the help


(Chris you out there????)


This was not Chris Rusch or Baileigh. You are speaking of a Dake Power hammer. Not us. ;)

captainkirk
12-10-2010, 01:23 PM
This post should have nothing to do with Chris or Baleigh that was not correct information.

But here is an update on the dies.
I went with the site information for "Hot metal Engineering" which is the originator of the dies I have that were sold at Metal Meet in 05 or 06.
The thought was that they were 4140 so I followed all the recommendations for heat treating 4140 in a small heat treat furnace and the results were a zero increase in hardness.

I was able to get in contact with Dennis at Hot metal Engineering finally through the help of Baleigh and Dake who currently sell what was originally the Anoka power hammer.
After telling Dennis what I had happen we both concluded that I might have gotten a set that had inadvertently been made from mild steel, Dennis offered to send me a new set of dies from the current batch and he even offered to pay my postage to return the old ones so there was no cost to me for making it right.
I have to say that I am totally pleased with how Dennis handled this and how he stood behind his product and how in this day and age where your lucky to get someone that speaks English on the phone it was a total pleasure fixing things and I just returned from the post office and should be getting my new set in short order.
Dennis is a stand up guy who stood behind his product 100% no questions asked.:D

I couldn't be happier with how this turned out.

Kirk

captainkirk
12-10-2010, 01:27 PM
Kirk,
Dennis Borgwarth was Hot Metal Customs, Loren Richards, RichardK and last but not least PedalCar Ben all came up with versions of a powered hammers.
Chris is Baileigh's inventor/designer, DC has posted a link to the patents to the Baileigh hammer. Sorry for the confusion, but 7-10 years later things do blend together some. tt;)

I think you mean Dennis Wolfgang with now Hot Metal Engineering, but thanks for the help as it turned me onto some really helpful guys and everything turned out just "peachy":D

oldgoaly
12-10-2010, 01:52 PM
The Baileigh Boys were brought in by DC's Google search, sorry we get a little sideways in the subject, might be ADD or OFD....tt ;)

Dawai
12-10-2010, 04:29 PM
Sorry guys.. I guess I just ramble along.. get a lil sideways at times. ADD, OCD yeah.. I dated a lady with a degree in Psychology once.. I think I was a interesting "subject" to her, and found out she had more problems than any biker I know. Thje most normal looking ones are sometimes the nuttiest.. they have a "false" front they hold up for the world to see. Till you find the bodies under the floorboards and the clown suit in the closet.

Things seem to connect at times. KNIFE tempering.. patent searches on shrinking dies, seem to go onto metal working machines, then onto configurable press dies, then onto sketching on a spiral notebook on how to make it work here in Gawgia with the junk laying about. I'm normally doing three things at once here.

Aww.. but is a crooked path we wander..