Switch for a 4 spd. electric motor

[CARS]

This is a cross-post from the AMS site. I am building one of the Reciprocating thumb-nail shrinker machines that were worked out by those guys. (Yes I know the same cast of characters, plus a few were working on it here at MM. But all of that was removed by certain guys and finally by the great crash :cry:) Anyway, this is what I am trying to figure out. Maybe one of you electrical guru's out there can assist me.

I have a 3/4 hp, 115v, 1075 rpm, 4 speed motor (1075 is max. I don't know yet what the slower speeds are). I have the pulleys to speed it up to about 2000 RPM at the highest position. I am now ready to mock up the motor and wire it.

I bought this 8 position rotary (changeover) switch from Surplus Center:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...tname=electric (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=11-2804&catname=electric)

What I was thinking is there are 6 labeled positions and 2 Off positions. I was going to wire it for 4 different speed positions and 4 Off positions. Speed 1, Off, Speed 2, Off, Speed 3, Off, Speed 4, Off. That way when it hits the fan I am one click away from Off.

After an hour of searching for the Company I found this diagram:

http://www.tend.cn/imag1/tbf/p31-tvs34.jpg

Yea, not much help to someone who knows only basic wiring.

A little info about the motor. It has a white line wire, green ground wire, a couple for the capacitor, a couple for motor direction, and 4 different colored wires for the 4 different speeds. (Diagram is too small to take a pic of).

So my basic wiring knowledge tells me to hook up the cap to the wires labeled cap, the white goes to white (line voltage), the ground goes to the green ground wire, and if this was a 1 speed motor, the black would go to black. Well, the black is High speed. (that would be the simplest thing to do but since I have a 4 speed motor I may as well use them)

The black needs to go to the switch. The switch has one bank of terminals that are split. V1 and V2. V1 has 4 terminals and V2 has 3 terminals. I am thinking that one of these is used for single phase and both used for 3 phase??? Don't know. Don't have the foggiest clue.

The switches other bank of terminals is labeled R, S, T, and N. I would assume that by hooking up the right series of wires, the switch positions RN, TN, RS, and RT activate the proper speed of my motor.

BTW, this switch is labeled for 220/600V. By using it for 110V the only thing that should change is the amperage rating goes up... right??

Anyone need more info or have a clear way of explaining how to wire this switch up??

Thanks in advance.
__________________

Any thoughts on how this switch works? I am going to play with an ohm meter tonight. But just because I own one doesn't mean I really understand how it works :rolleyes:

[bobadame]

I'm no spark chaser Chris so I don't have a clue but I bet that if you took your motor and switch to an HVAV shop, someone there might know. I say this because I'm guessing that this motor might be from a forced air furnace.

[oldgoaly]

Chris,
may I suggest a simple 4 speed fan switch???? lets say from a window a/c unit? box fan may not be heavy enough? where's DavidC when you need him?
if you put power on v2-n
it can work like a 3 speed switch if you put hi on v1-r, medium on v1-s, and low on v1-t

before you connect up power, please double check what it shows on website is how it is on the switch by using an ohm meter!!!!
tt

[CARS]

I'm no spark chaser Chris so I don't have a clue but I bet that if you took your motor and switch to an HVAV shop, someone there might know. I say this because I'm guessing that this motor might be from a forced air furnace.

You are correct. It is a furnace motor. I will need to add a fan to cool it because it is an air-over motor. It's an Emerson so there is a lot of diagrams and info about the motor. That is the easy part. I seem to be making the controls the hard part :rolleyes:

[CARS]

Chris,
may I suggest a simple 4 speed fan switch???? lets say from a window a/c unit? box fan may not be heavy enough? where's DavidC when you need him?
if you put power on v2-n
it can work like a 3 speed switch if you put hi on v1-r, medium on v1-s, and low on v1-t

before you connect up power, please double check what it shows on website is how it is on the switch by using an ohm meter!!!!
tt

I can't really find a 4 speed switch that is compact. That is why I was trying to wire this one for 4 on positions and 4 off positions.

And the ohm meter... wow you can really learn alot using one of them can't you :p More about my findings below.

[CARS]

Alright. I got out the multi-meter and started playing around. I'm not that proficient at the meter, but after clicking around abit I found where I needed to be.

I took the V1 terminal first, put the red probe on it and started writing down what I discovered. Then did the same with the V2 terminal and wrote down what switch position did. After discovering that V1 and V2 did different things in different switch position I jumped the 2 V terminals creating one voltage input. And wrote down what I found... yet another set of findings.

So given what I found I have discovered that while it is an 8 position switch there are only 3 circuits available at any 1 time (unless you add another switch to switch between V1 an V2). http://www.********shaping.com/images/smilies/confused.gif Ya, weird and disappointing. So $7. something wasted.

But wait, there is more to this project http://www.********shaping.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Well, those terminals are switched by cams inside the case. Wonder how that works http://www.********shaping.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif If I can clock the cams correctly, I should be able to get 4 circuits out of the 6. I took it apart and tried to keep the parts from shooting all over the place (springs for the contacts). I did really good not loosing anything and remembering how it all came apart so it went together smoothly.

The cams are all different profiles. That is why some worked in 2 switch positions (or when there was a separate V1 and V2 input). I tried to stager them anyway and put it all back together. I did move some terminal positions but still only have 3 separate terminals http://www.********shaping.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I learned a bunch about switches in the process and I could actually try again and modify the cams by making them all the same ramp (like the one was/is). But after the reply's concern about the switch's durability I think I may just buy something else. And I am only out $7 bucks and some head scratching http://www.********shaping.com/images/icons/icon_lol.gif __________________

[Richard K]

Chris,

Ask your technical experts over yonder about the torque requiremements of "their design" of recip machine. Then find out how much torque your fan motor produces (remember... double the speed/halve the torque).

when you get that rig ready to spin and add a work load (metal) I'd have a bright light handy so you can see through the smoke. You won't need hearing protection; the humm and sizzle noise won't last very long.

[oldgoaly]

I know I have a switch that will work, but where it is??? in the pig pen.....I think? The wife and my boy moved all my stuff down there, once or twice we have gone a searched thru the boxes, but they are not organized, even for someone like me they are disorganized, and stacked to the cieling, boxes marked some are, but they are against the wall:rolleyes: oh well

[CARS]

Chris,

Ask your technical experts over yonder about the torque requiremements of "their design" of recip machine. Then find out how much torque your fan motor produces (remember... double the speed/halve the torque).

when you get that rig ready to spin and add a work load (metal) I'd have a bright light handy so you can see through the smoke. You won't need hearing protection; the humm and sizzle noise won't last very long.

I know that it's a simple mix of your Shop Dog's, Desert Hybrid, Anoka, and a million other machines built over the last Century. You and others should be proud that your ideas continue to be used and tested in other configurations.

As for asking, I have. I have seen everything from 1/3 hp to 3 hp being discussed. I have this motor, bought for dang near nothing. Being it is 3/4 hp I would think it would work. It is designed as a torque motor being 1075 rpm isn't it?? I just need to play with the pile of pulleys to find a good, usable high speed setting and use the other 3 speeds for slower work. I don't know, it may just end up with a smoked motor. In that case I will find a different one. (I bought the lot of motors from 1/10 hp to 3 phase, 3 hp at the auction... nobody was paying attention or wanted a bunch of bran-new motors) No, I won't use the 3 hp... that one is going on my paint booth with a VFD to slow it down in winter ;)

I'm surprised Richard. You are usually more helpful. What motor would you suggest? All your old info when these machines were being discussed was removed. :confused:

[Peter Miles]

I know less than squat about multi-speed motors. Pullmax made a series of 4-speed P9 nibblers (I think for U.S. military users) that had a reputation as being rather complex widgets to support.

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=193&pictureid=2067

A very long motor, a complicated switch panel on the right, and a lot of smoke that you definitely did not want to let out.

[CARS]

Peter, the more I read up on switches last night (who says you can't learn from problems and crazy ideas) the more I am going to take KP's advice and just rig a single switch to the high speed and get the unit up and running.

I can't believe how hard it is to find a switch that only allows one speed at a time and a simple pull on, push off switch.

During my searching I did find a couple people who were looking for the same thing. Ironically for the same motor (less HP though. These motors were available for many different furnace fan apps). They had replaced their furnace and kept the squirrel cage and motor and wanted different speed fans. They couldn't readily find a switch to fit their needs either.

[oldgoaly]

simple light switch between hot and high speed will do the trick, mount in a metal handy box use some at least 16gauge SJ or SO cord (heavy extension power cable or equipment power cable)
Depending on how that motor is wound internally will tell if it's got the torque you need, service factor will give you a clue. If you have an Amprobe to see what the amperage is while running, this will tell you whether your gonna let the smoke out. Heck the way you stated the questions, it sounded like you had everything ready to go......

[Doug98105]

.................................................. ..................

I can't believe how hard it is to find a switch that only allows one speed at a time and a simple pull on, push off switch.

.................................................. ...........................................



Chris,

I don't believe those type switches are hard to find. But, easy to find and cheap are mutually exclusive terms when it comes to switches of the not-so-common variety.

As far as the motor goes...I tend to agree with Richard. A fan motor is not what I would put on a machine tool. My suggestion is a heavy frame, general purpose motor with a high service factor. Generally, a heavy motor will have high rotational inertia (flywheel effect) which would be good for an impact (hitting) type application.

If you think a single speed will suit the purpose, that's easy.

For variable speed, either VFD/three phase or DC/speed controller. In most areas used, small, three phase motors are a dime a dozen, DC are more expensive.

My preference is variable speed.

Doug

[CARS]

Heck the way you stated the questions, it sounded like you had everything ready to go......

The pile of pieces is ready to go (minus the dies). Going to look at Dan Pate's dies next Monday when I stop by. I see quite a few make their own, and I would like to try that, but with a proven machine. So I hope to make a set of thumb nail dies before the Fall Route 56 MM and with Dan's permission, compare my dies to what he has.

[CARS]

Chris,

I don't believe those type switches are hard to find. But, easy to find and cheap are mutually exclusive terms when it comes to switches of the not-so-common variety.

As far as the motor goes...I tend to agree with Richard. A fan motor is not what I would put on a machine tool. My suggestion is a heavy frame, general purpose motor with a high service factor. Generally, a heavy motor will have high rotational inertia (flywheel effect) which would be good for an impact (hitting) type application.

If you think a single speed will suit the purpose, that's easy.

For variable speed, either VFD/three phase or DC/speed controller. In most areas used, small, three phase motors are a dime a dozen, DC are more expensive.

My preference is variable speed.

Doug

Thanks for your opinion. If I had a "Farm Duty" motor laying around I would use it. I know it is not meant to be used without air over it, so I am adding a cooling fan. We'll see. It isn't like I do anything but play with metal shaping. A few bowls, a few patch panels, etc. Heck my HF Phammer just finally stopped hitting hard last week after running 16 ga through.

[shortbus]

Most of the multi speed HVAC/fan motors are not made to be switched between speeds. When you install the furnace you hard wire for the needed air movement and leave it at that speed.

[oldgoaly]

Actually with the newer high efficeincy 2 speed furnaces and a/c units they do switch, some are even variable speed on heat, the control modules are pricey!!!!
Chances are Chris isn't going to be changing speeds under a load, with planishing dies he will want high speed, with some other dies he may want to slow it down. Add in the gear/speed reduction to get the desired final speed. Like so many things in this craft, the speed he likes and the feed rate is more personal preference than anything else.
If everything was set in stone, Richard Crees would not have found the High amp-fast moving tig weld has less distortion! tt

[CARS]

I new not to energize 2 or more speeds at the same time. I was hoping that rotary switch could do Speed 1, Off, Speed 2, Off, etc. Or I wanted to find a push button switch like an old radio has for tuning stations. 94.7 on the first button, oldies 100.5 on the next button, etc. But only one at a time (so you don't let the smoke out ;) )

Terry, you hit the nail on the head with "why?". Will it work???? Only time will tell. It isn't like I am going to do 1/2" beads with it. Just some shrinking and maybe try some doming dies to find the limits. Then fix what breaks :rolleyes:

[Richard K]

I'm surprised Richard. You are usually more helpful. What motor would you suggest? All your old info when these machines were being discussed was removed. :confused:

Chris,

With absolutely no worry about being politically correct; I'll clear up the surprise element for you.

When the "other" site was begun. The metalshaping family was fractured. A great community of very good people suffered. Everyone was/is probably affected in some way.

I divorced a few years ago after 25 years with my wife and childfren. I still get invited to holidays and special events; but my family is "broken".

The Metalshaping "family" is broken too. This year there are two seperate annual events this year. Most people must choose one or the other. Time and expense dictate many of those decisions.

There are lots of good people on both sites and then there are many who are sort of "caught in the middle". The Metalshaping "family" is in some ways beyond repair.

Chris, you have asked the same question on both sites and have gotten no definitive help and fewer total replies than you would have gotten a couple of years ago.


Give me a call chris and I could come down and help you with this. My number is 612-559-3352. I am availble most weekends and have 16 weeks of vaction to use up before year end.

[Pete's Metalshaping]

......................................... I am available most weekends and have 16 weeks of vacation to use up before year end.


So Richard, after the first of the year, how many weeks of vacation do you get?:D:D

[Richard K]

It depends on how long the social security system can operate in the red.