Tig welding body panels - No hammering method

[TheRodDoc]

I have never shown my welding methods here I guess. I see a lot of you using to big of tungstens for the process so I thought I would tell you how I do it. Might help some of you that want to learn a new or different aproach to welding sheetmetal.

I use an old Lincoln IdealArc 300/300 welder. No fancy settings.
For 18 ga., 19 ga. I use a 1/16" dia. tungsten. 2% theoriated. Sharp.
20 ga. I use a .040" dia. tungsten of same type.

Amperage set at around 135 - 140. for the 1/16 tungsten And weld with that full amperage. Pedal way down. This is just under the amperage that will melt that size tungsten. This is the settings for welding this door I show below.

The reason for this is that a tungsten will carry the current the best just before it melts. The arc will be very stable and smooth at that amperage.

Now you won't be using the pedal to control the amperage. Only to start the arc and gas. Just smash it clear down.
Your travel speed will control the heat needed to make the weld.

I will show a buick door I just welded. The door is 48" long and totaly flat long ways.

I formed the new lower half of the door panel. Then filed the edge till fit up was good.
Lined the new patch up and clamped one end. Then went along from that clamped end every 1 1/2" with tacks. The tacks were so small that they don't even blue the metal. Use no filler to make them.

There will be no need to hammer any of these tacks for they are so small that they don't shrink or warp the sheets at all. After tacked full length this way I added one more in between all of those.

Now it was ready to weld. My brother was there and he decided to time me on the long weld. (He is always amazed at my welding sheetmetal)
I welded the whole 48 inch seam in 2 1/2 minutes. Fast. I use no filler rod.
I use both hands to control the torch.

The welds done this way will not warp the sheet at all. There will be no hammering of this weld. Only a light sanding of just the weld on both sides. The weld is flat with no under cut at all on welded side and a very slight hollow in center of weld on back side.

Here is a couple shots of that weld right after I finished it. Haven't touched it with any hammer or anything yet. My camera makes it look like the weld is sticking up but it isn't. It is very flat. I need a camera that will take close up shots. My camera gets fuzzy if I get any closer then these pic. The door hasn't warped at all. still flat as can be long ways.

3915

3916


And a couple of the weld sanded smooth but still haven't touched it with a hammer. I hung it on the inner door frame to make sure it fits ok. It is not crimped on in these pictures.

I tried to get the light shining down the weld but what I could see with my the camera seemed to change. I suppose the flash is shinning the light from a different angle is why.

3917

3918


Here is a list of top max amp settings you would use for each tungsten size.

.020 max- 20 amps
.040 max- 70 amps
.062 max- 140 amps This is about what I used for the door.
3/32 max- 210 amps
1/8 max- 310 amps
5/32 max- 500 amps

If using this last setting I would guess you would be welding 18 ga. at about 300 inches/minute.
And there would hardly be a heat affected zone showing. The lower the amperage and slower the speed the wider that gets.

[Randy Ferguson]

Richard,

I've gotta try that. Thanks for sharing that with us. The door looks great.

[TheRodDoc]

Forgot to say that I do not wear gloves when tig welding sheetmetal. So to let my torch hand slide along easily I use a paper towel under that hand where it is resting on the sheet. The other hand is not resting on anything but pulling my torch hand along. One weld non stop. You can see where the heat affected zone wavers slightly. That was me wiggling a little moving my body as I went along. <grin> That HAZ is about 5/8" wide total. It doesn't show up on the old metal in photos. Only on the new metal side.

I also should say that if you can't control the torch at the amperage I used here and tungsten size, then rather then turn down the amperage with that same tungsten you should switch to the next size smaller dia. tungsten.
Then use the max amperage for that size. Now you will be moving slower while welding. But the haz will get wider.
The more amperage and larger the tungsten the faster you have to move and the smaller the haz gets.

[jvo]

I'm gonna have to try going faster also. Problem I always seem to have is I can get the gap tight some places, then end up with a few thousandths of an inch gap other places. Then file some more and just change the gaps to other places. I try to scribe just one line, then cut and file tight to that line.

When I try to weld with a tiny gap, without filler rod, I always burn a hole.
Do you manage to get your sheet metal absolutely touching all the way? Maybe I need to spend a little more time fitting them.

Regardless, I'm going to try to speed up the process. I never considered that would put less heat into the panel, but I guess its a no brainer. Thanks.

[TheRodDoc]

Yep, The fit up must be good. For long straight cuts like this door I use a large new sharp hand file to make sure both edges are straight.

Take good care of the file you use for this to keep it sharp. I wrap mine up in bubble wrap when done and put it back in the drawer. Only lay it down on the bubble wrap while using it too.

This seam had very slight gaps but probably not more then four or five thousandths.

[CARS]

Thanks for posting Richard! Great information. Now to practice, practice, practice, practice,....

[Pedalcar]

Thanks Richard for posting,

But do you have Eagle Eyes,:o i always have troubles to see the gap where the weld needs to be....:(

Any tricks for that:p

thanks

Ben

[Tisdelski]

wow !!

i`ve never tried welding at that many amps..

i`ll try it.

i`m guessing its the tig version of how david (mindover) describes his gas welding ??

thanks richard

[CARS]

Richard,

Do you remove the skin every time you perform a lower skin patch???

I know you have helped me fix warping on door patches before, but I have never did the patch without the top side on the shell.

How does that change the whole operation???

[TheRodDoc]

I used to make a lot better welds before my eyes got worse. now I have to wear reading glasses.

I went down to a no. 7 lens for the helmet and use magnifiers in it too.
Also wear my reading glasses. You have to see what your doing to do this.

You can use the lightest lens that your eyes can stand the brightness. It won't hurt your eyes for the ultra violet light is taken out by whatever shade lens you use.

No. I don't always remove the skin. I removed it on this one for I had to put extra bracing inside the door for we took out the vent windows and are using a full length side window. Has a hand made front window post that bolts onto the inner door. And part of the original hinge bracing had to be removed for the glass and new ones made and also to brace the area that that new post bolted on.

On the inner door or off it makes no difference for the main welding. But, Off of the inner door does make tacking the patch on a Lot easier for now you can lay both parts edges down on a flat table outside down and tack on the inside. This really makes it simple to line up the edges as you move along with the tacks. Just hold the joint down to the table with a piece of metal at each tack. And on the inner door you have to do it as David has already described he does it.

Either way you don't want to get in to big of a hurry doing the tacking. Take your time and make sure the spot for the next tack is perfectly lined up. I hold my tig tungsten as close to the center of the seam as passable and down super close to the sheetmetal. Just a few thousandths above the surface. Use the edge of the cup to keep it steady. I use a .020 tungsten with about 15 amps to make each tack. The tacks don't penetrate through the sheetmetal. I use the pedal to control the amps for tacking. I don't move the point around. Just center it on the seam. Then push the pedal all the way down till the metal fused together in a very tiny spot. No filler rod.
If you have trouble keeping the arc steady you can try continues hi freq. instead of start only. I don't use it that way but some might have to.

[irishpol]

Still no pictures!

[shortbus]

I'm gonna have to try going faster also. Problem I always seem to have is I can get the gap tight some places, then end up with a few thousandths of an inch gap other places. Then file some more and just change the gaps to other places. I try to scribe just one line, then cut and file tight to that line. <snip>

One thing that I've never seen mentioned here, to get a better,straighter, filed edge on the sheet metal is to "Draw File" it. Instead of moving the file in and out over the edge, you hold the file 90 degrees to the length and pull it toward you. this removes less metal and makes it easier to get a straight edge. You do this after getting close to your line by the regular method of filing or grinding.

cary

[Jim Stabe]

Does the method work for aluminum as well?

[TheRodDoc]

If you mean the welding process, yes. AC curent. Cleaning will have to be done a little more carefully. one size larger tungsten for the same thickness sheet as steel. More amps. Use pedal now for amp control. travel fast.

[ESjaavik]

But do you have Eagle Eyes,:o i always have troubles to see the gap where the weld needs to be....:(

Any tricks for that:p


Ben, I have the same problem.
Go get a LedLenser H7 headlamp. It helps me a lot while OA welding. And I'll put one on the Speedglas helmet too. We did that already but with a lot less powerful light. The H7 is very powerful for it's size. Lots of good light helps a lot, and when it's mounted on yourself the weld pool is less likely to be in shadow. Sometimes I even wrap it on my left hand to get it even closer.

RodDoc, now I understood the use of you left hand. It will help me as my right hand often have a shake. (Age+lots of coffe?) while my left hand does not. And it's not always convenient to weld left handed.

[Doug98105]

.................................................. ......................

.020 max- 20 amps
.040 max- 70 amps
.062 max- 140 amps This is about what I used for the door.
3/32 max- 210 amps
1/8 max- 310 amps
5/32 max- 500 amps

.................................................. ................



These recommendations seem to be much higher than what Miller recommends, but then, you can't argue with success.

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/tig_amperage_calculator.php

Miller is showing a filler, which might require a higher amperage.

According to the other thread about TIG welders, a lot of us have pulsers on our machines. I thought the function of the pulser is to allow the higher amp settings Richard mentions with less worry about burn through.

Doug

[v2cad]

Doug
I found the pulser works great when welding "conventional style" where you're dipping the rod and going for the stack of dimes look. Rick taught me a method similar to Rod Docs where no filler is used. I have not tried it as hot and quick as Richard recommends, but I'm going to give it a shot. At the speed and amperage I'm not sure the pulser would be as helpful.

J.

[cadillac 53]

G'day from Down Under,
This is my first posting. I found this link whilst searching for welding advise and so glad I did. I am presently restoring 2 53 Eldos and a 59 Eldo. I have done quite a bit of self taught metal work and am quite competant but always willing to learn new skills. I recently spent a couple of weeks in another workshop with one tradesman in particular who only gas welded panels (and stonly advised me not to MIG). I thought he was putting too much heat in them as there was lots of hammering and subsequently body panels were warping. I have rolled up new door tops for one of the 53s and was going to use my MIG but now having seen your results, I think I will go back and practice more on my TIG (which I previously only used for occational SS jobs mainly 1.2 mm work. I seem to have the drama that everyone else seems to have with TIG blow thrus on thin sheetmetal, but I am seeing that gap fit and cleanliness might be the problem to rectify.
I have to work out the tungsten sizes you use in metric. I have 1.2 and 1.6 tungstens. Also I have to turn my Tig right down to nearly it's lowest setting to not blast holes. I am amazed you can weld that long with no blow thrus and also no heat absorbing strip on the back. I'll start practicing on the weekend and hopefully can ask more questions as they arise.
THanks for the inspiration so far though. Regards. Quentin.

[John Kelly]

That looks great Richard. Are you saying there is no shrinkage at all from welding, and therefore no need for stretching? If so, how are you defying the laws of physics? A deal with the devil perhaps?

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

[TheRodDoc]

John,

I cut everything with hand snips. That stretches the edges just enough so that the srinkage from the weld puts the metal back to about where it was. As long as the heat affected zone isn't much wider then the area the snips stretched.

[John Kelly]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the explanation, but I'm not convinced that hand snips will pre-stretch enough (or at all) to make up for weld shrinkage. Shrinkage happens away from the edge to some degree. Anytime the metal turns blue you are most surely shrinking. In fact the metal shrinks at lower temperatures than that. You are the first person I have ever seen make claims like these that was not a metal working novice. You are obviously a very talented metal worker, not a novice. Respectfully, I do not believe what you are saying is correct.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

[captainkirk]

Personally I could care less why it works...it obviously does

Richard many thanks for sharing your methods, I have made a copy of this method and will try it today. Wahooo!

I'm sure I won't be able to throw out my hammer right away, but perhaps with years of practice and a deal with Ba'al Zebûb I to will daze and amaze my friends and relatives.:D

[pro70z28]

I did a little sheet metal welding last night and was thinking of this thread while welding. I can say with confidence that I will need a hammer for quite some time yet.:shock:

[Randy Ferguson]

John,

You'll have to try it. I did and was amazed. I just used the 3/32" tungsten and left the settings about where I'm used to, but still got pretty decent results....far better than expected. I'm going to get some smaller tungsten and crank up the heat, following Richards directions. What a time saver!!

[John Kelly]

Hi Randy,

I am not disputing that Richard has a very fast and beautiful welding technique, or that metal finishing the weld might be easier with this method compared to others. I simply do not believe that there is no shrinkage.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

[60 convert]

I am sure there is some shrinkage. the difference is that with one constant weld where the HAZ is consistant enough that it all comes out consistant.
Jesse

[Philrally]

Well done Richard. I cant see the pics unfortunately but it sounds like you've got a wonderful result. Normally i'd be using less than half those amps! I cant wait to try your technique. As far as no shrinking goes i cant believe it. Maybe over a seam that runs edge to edge it might just seem like theres no shrink. What about a circular patch in a flat panel???

[NOHOME]

Well, more to this method than the printed word can communicate! Went out and gave it a try on some 20 AWG and reminded me of when I first started teaching myself to TIG sheet metal: The holes would appear as soon as I turned the machine on! Then I came here and read about this "practice and patience" tool that seems to be mandatory.Might need to dig that tool back out and practice up a bit.

As to shrinking, why whould it shrink if you do not cool the weld quickly? The pieces are butted tight and have no where to go. For example, if you heat a high spot with the shrinking disc, but do not quench, does the metal still shrink?

Pete

[John Kelly]

Hi Pete,

Yes, the metal shrinks (thickens slightly) when heat is applied... with or without quenching. I'm not sure what the minimum temperature is to get shrinking, just that it is far below the minimum temperature of welding (red hot +). It is also below the temperature required to get the metal blue hot. This is easily proven by doing a little testing.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

[BarryA]

.....For example, if you heat a high spot with the shrinking disc, but do not quench, does the metal still shrink?

Yes it does. There are some that believe you should quench at all when shrinking as it will harden the metal (it won't to any measurable effect on mild steel)
The principle here is total heat added is less(you're welding hotter but for a much shorter duraton) as well as being bery even. Whatever the "theory" the results speak for themselves.

[dmoss69]

Man, I need a tig machine!!!

[godspeed]

I didn't notice what gas is being used.. If I try to use a CO2 mix in the tig it does awful.. (just trying to save a little doing steel) I have better luck with Argon. Trying to get this technique down pat is trying my nerves,, but I'll get it.

[tonkat]

Richard, I have a cheep scratch start tig machine. will your method work with a that type of tig machine? tom

[TheRodDoc]

scratch start is fine. Any tig welder will work. you control the bead by the speed of the torch. If the weld gets to hot move faster and if it isn't penetrating enough move slower. start the amp setting around 60 and work your way up till you are moving as fast as you can when practicing.


Pure argon only for tig on steel.

[dccpanels]

I tried it with my cheap scratch and start "aparatus" and immediately realized the potential savings of time and effort for subsequent metal finishing! Now I'm experimenting with the heat settings. Unfortunately, my little machine just has lines and no numbers for amperage settings (I have no idea if it's at 20 or 60 amps).

One thing I've learned, the hard way, is that as long as the haz is even you'll always have an easier time metalfinishing because the surface will be all even. This technique not only acheives a small haz it keeps it even; assuming of course, the edges are without gap.

Richard,
How would you know if the heat is right if you don't have a numbered scale on the machine? Other than trial and error until you don't get and blow through, poor penetration, etc., would the tungsten give any indication or hint to find out the sweet spot? i.e should the tungsten be cherry red?

Thanks for the invaluable help on this often frustrating topic.
Tom

[dmoss69]

THANK YOU FOR THIS TIP, AND HERE'S WHAT I DID/LIKED.......

I just tried this method on 20 gauge metal, and it worked for me!!

I started out on 70 amps, it was a little fast for me, so I backed it down to 50 amps, and it was perfect!!!

I was using a friends miller syncrowave 350, pure argon gas, no filler rod.

I tried the pulse function, and welded without the pulse function, I didn't see any difference with or without it switched on.

The biggest issue I was was keeping the steel seam butted together, with no gaps. I was playing with small plates that I cut, practicing. Any gap= a bigger gap, the metal just rolled away from each other.

MY QUESTION:.......How do you get the panel tightly against the other panel for a butt weld, perfectly alligned, so you can use your hands to weld? If I could get that trick down, I'd be in business!

[dmoss69]

BTW....

after re-reading the first post, my total HAZ was probably an inch, which is not what the author of this post was promoting.

I don't know what size tungsen that I was using, but I would have to be flying on the welding gun to turn this up past 70amps. At 70, I was moving pretty good.

[dmoss69]

I check tungsen size, I had 3/32.

So I upped the anne to 200 amp (suggested by theroddoc)!!!!

Found me some 20ga stainless to play with, tacked the 2 panels together several places to hold (bout half pedal to tack was the sweet spot for me).

The welder that I was using had a timer to start, so I mashed the pedal bout half way, waited on arc, soon as I saw puddle, I mashed it to the floor and took off.

THIS IS THE SH*T!!!! :grin: This has to be the best tip I got off this website yet! I'm in awe of how easy and fast this works, to anyone who reads this and has access to a tig welder, really, try it!

THANK YOU THERODDOC!

[Philrally]

Thanks, Roddoc. I think my results were better than what i expected. I'll admit. Im sure my 140amps are 'more' than yours as my weld time is about 6secs per 12 inches. (or there abouts) The puddle becomes very elongated and im sure there will be issues with gas shielding at that speed. Im getting acceptable penetration and not much overall shrinkage. I've settling in at about 120amps for controlable welding to get similar results. Just a touch thru the planisher and we're looking sweet. Im enjoying speed welding!

[greenbaja]

what is being described here is basically the same system as orbital welding ( used on 10g ss tubing for high purity stuff ) ...that machine just runs a butt weld over two square ends ....the weld comes out perfect !!! i have just never tried to use it on flat plate ...but i am gonna give it a shot next time im in the shop...i love outta the box thinking !!!!

[dmoss69]

This is what I saw today.....

Yesterday, when I got this method down pat, I was welding .065" stainless steel, using 200 amps on a 3/32 tungsen.

I cut some sheet metal that I'm using for my 57 belair, .045" iron, and tried the 200 amps, and it was WAY too hot! No matter the speed, the HAZ and penetration was too much. For me to get to the same speed and look of the stainless with 200 amps, I had to drop down to 70 amps to get a comfortable speed, or could go up to 90 amps and run the butt weld fast.

No matter at 70 amps or 90 amps, the HAZ was the same width, so I'm gonna stick with the 70 amps on this metal that's .045".

Still using the same technique, same look and result, just not as hot, and not much warpage. But I wasn't welding 48" seam either, the most I welded was about 10".

D Moss

[carelv8]

Hi Richard
Thanks for the neat tip of the file bieing stored in bubble wrap

Carel

[Tinelement]

Neat idea! Heat = shrink! I can do a quick tac and hold post flow with no heat mark as well. But, without hammering your weld how much body filler are you putting on?? Seriously... the idea is nice, but if you are taking metal up a molten state, required for "welding", you're creating to much heat for that material not to shrink..... Just my 2 cents

[Tisdelski]

Neat idea! Heat = shrink! I can do a quick tac and hold post flow with no heat mark as well. But, without hammering your weld how much body filler are you putting on?? Seriously... the idea is nice, but if you are taking metal up a molten state, required for "welding", you're creating to much heat for that material not to shrink..... Just my 2 cents
You have to read the whole post, Richard is counting on the shrinkage to stay consistant because there is no stopping and starting and no filler rod inconsistancys.

The shrinkage stays uniform , meaning little to no hammerwork.

Gary

[Tinelement]

I did read all the posts. I must have not read the whole thing with understanding! My apologies!

[Tisdelski]

I did read all the posts. I must have not read the whole thing with understanding! My apologies!
No need for apologies Neal,

I had to read it a few times before it sunk in with me , Its shrinking at an even rate so little to no warpage.

Gary

[carryallman]

hey moderators this post should be set up on a rotating timetable .so all metal meeters new and old are reminded of it ! it is the best of the best !!! or maybe have a special posting section from the rod doc every month if he would do it ? this would be like going to "oblong" and watching some of our best of the best guys doing there thing !! i see where randy f.is posting more ,i hope him and rod doc,r naida and some of the others will post more ?

[oldgoaly]

Mike,
That is a good idea, a copy of it in the member techniques http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=171 Being a Tig weld post it should be easy to find, it already is a sticky (top of the list) Maybe a "sticky" search feature could be added for those who are looking for the best posts??? tt;)

[kiwiandy]

This is an interesting thread Richard, thanks for sharing:) Im keen to give this method a go and im interested in the torch angle you use with this method. Its my thinking that the torch at a 90 degree angle to the sheetmetal pushes more heat into the sheet? Im assuming you are right handed and working right side of the sheet metal to left side but do you angle the tig torch any particular way?

Thanks.

Andy.

[custommachines]

very interesting, can't wait to check this one out!