View Full Version : Orange County Metal Meet OCMM 2010

02-23-2010, 07:30 PM

-Glad the site is back up-

I am thinking about putting on the first OCMM at my shop here in Fullerton California.

Is there enough interest to have this event?

The soonest date would be the first week in September.

What do you think?

John A.

02-23-2010, 07:59 PM
a MM gathering in So. Calif. Orange county would be great
i take it you have been to one of Tony's ?
more details of your shop would be nice ?

02-23-2010, 09:31 PM
Hello Dick,

Well, my shops name is Grumpy's Metal. Most project at the shop are in bare metal and leave bare metal once the work is completed. I also do some light manufacturing- using the pullmax, hammer forms and I farm some stuff out.

As far as equipment goes we have.

English wheel, bead roller, pullmax, 36" CP plannishing hammer, kick shrinker and stretcher, mig welder, tig welder, spot welder, OX Acc torch, 52 pexto gap shear, 50 ton press, 5 hp 3 drive roll former and much much more ( ok I am lying about the last part)

does that answer your question?

John A.

Pete's Metalshaping
02-24-2010, 01:05 AM

That sounds great, I'm sure it will be well attended. Tony always had a good size group at his, with people coming from Canada and all over the west coast.

Rick (madera)
02-24-2010, 10:09 AM
that sounds good!!!!
if need be I can bring my trailer with my machines again

02-24-2010, 11:07 AM
i voted maybe in your poll
if i can be in So Calif when the time comes i will make it
i'm sure it will be a fun gathering for all who show

red baron
02-25-2010, 03:58 PM
I am definitaly interested, any way to make this thread easy to find as it gets closer? I am just geting started, and i have tons i need to learn. ( I am a firm believer that you never ever stop learning)

02-26-2010, 07:45 AM
Depending on my work situation, I may be able to make it.

02-26-2010, 03:17 PM
I'll be there.

Pete's Metalshaping
02-26-2010, 03:33 PM
All of you guys should join the West Coast Metal Shapers Group. It was formed to be a discussion place for metalshaping events on the west coast.


02-27-2010, 08:36 AM
Red Baron- I will talk with one of the board members and hammer out the details to make the meet official, then once this site is fully functional you will find the meet- details and info under "Events"

Also you could book mark this thread- or subscribe ( but I don't know how to do that)


red baron
02-27-2010, 11:24 AM
Red Baron- I will talk with one of the board members and hammer out the details to make the meet official, then once this site is fully functional you will find the meet- details and info under "Events"

Also you could book mark this thread- or subscribe ( but I don't know how to do that)


Thanks! Any one else a little farther south? Like north san diego?

03-02-2010, 08:13 AM
Hello All,

I wanted to start an open discussion about the content and structure of OCMM. I have a few thoughts on the matter and want to run them by the members here.

First is to have 3-5 seminars planned out for each day of the event, led by a knowledgeable volunteer MM member.
With content and topics ranging from metal shaping basics, cut, weld tig, mig, oxy acc,, planishing, stretch, shrink, bend, dent removal, shrinking disk, patterns, paper, flexible shape patterns, how to make panel features, making patch panels, making large panels, and the seven ways to skin a cat etc.

Keep the seminars to a minimum, possibly divide into groups based on skill level and collectively work on building a car body or portion of it.


03-02-2010, 11:03 AM
sounds like a good idea,

get some date ideas together and throw them out,

not much car stuff happening early September to conflict,


Rat Bastard
03-02-2010, 04:31 PM
Count me in.....

red baron
03-02-2010, 04:38 PM
I like it! i want to sign up for one of everything!

03-03-2010, 05:17 PM
:)It is about time!!! Fred26t

Mark W. Spigelmire
03-04-2010, 02:13 PM
John, I will be there. Also I can help you with any preperation that is needed.

03-04-2010, 08:34 PM
Hello All,

As the story goes: When MM started it set out to get fifty guys together and build a car body.

I would like to do that at OCMM. In the process I want us to strengthen the MM membership base, rebuild the MM library and organize for the first West Coast Metal Meet.

This is what I propose:

Group responsibilities and involvement in the planning of, creation of tutorials and video to aid with the library and the OCMM projects.
For example-
Team X- organized by John A. (thatís me)
Team X member s --- (insert name here and 3-5 others)
Team project- Door skins- (we can have more than one project)

Over the next 5 months we- contribute content that is relevant to the team project (in this example the shaping of a door skin.) This can fall on the shoulders of one or more members. We discuss it and contribute accordingly, if you donít know the process of making a skin, or putting one on by the time you show up to OCMM you will.
This idea could use some fleshing out, and it would require that some of the more experience Metal Meet members participate and all of us to be involved. But if you and I donít do it, then who will? And if we donít do it now, then when?

03-04-2010, 10:50 PM
Hey John,

I like the idea! Get everyone on the same page on a project and flesh out the theory before hand, then we can jump right into it at the meet and not waste alot of time, record it in pictures and video for posterity. Excellent, where do I sign up?


03-05-2010, 04:29 AM
Hi John,

You have proposed a great idea. One that is in the true spirit of Metalmeet. As a long time member I salute you and thank you for keeping this thread on the forum instead of buried in a chat room. I, and many others who can't attend, are interested in what is going on in all areas of our community.

As you stated, this is how Metalmeet got started and grew to become the most focused and unique site on the internet.

Thank you.

Tony Sanchez
03-05-2010, 08:46 AM
---Jim, all the pertinant information associated with the OCMM will be posted on the MM site. Anything with metalshaping content,seminars, and videos, will be posted on the MM site. All the planning and chit chat related to this meet will be on the social site. It will all be on the MM site and available for everyone to see and make comments.

03-06-2010, 08:07 AM
Jim, Tony and all those reading this thread.

Maybe part of what we could do is make a decision as to the content need for a large build like this one and post challenges here in our forum for our members to work on.

It does not require you to attend the meet to be part of the build and the rebuild of the site. It only requires your decision to be involved.

Over the next couple of weeks, with the help of other members, post will be made with specific tasks for the meet.

John A.

Marty Comstock
03-06-2010, 08:41 AM
Hosting a meet can be expensive and interesting. Worth it though! Sometimes trying to organize it too much is just that, too much. Sometimes you have to roll with what hapopens and the projects that are brung or onsite to work on. On the other hand, I have the best time at meets where there are dedicated projects, Doug's truck build comes to mind.


Tony Sanchez
03-06-2010, 10:26 AM
---John has some fantastic ideas as to how plans and projects for the 2010 OCMM meet will be made and carried out. I think that there will be a lot of metal shaping content that will be posted on the MM site.

03-08-2010, 12:12 AM
Hello All,

As the story goes: When MM started it set out to get fifty guys together and build a car body.

I would like to do that at OCMM. In the process I want us to strengthen the MM membership base, rebuild the MM library and organize for the first West Coast Metal Meet.

This is what I propose:

Group responsibilities and involvement in the planning of, creation of tutorials and video to aid with the library and the OCMM projects.
For example-
Team X- organized by John A. (thatís me)
Team X member s --- (insert name here and 3-5 others)
Team project- Door skins- (we can have more than one project)

Over the next 5 months we- contribute content that is relevant to the team project (in this example the shaping of a door skin.) This can fall on the shoulders of one or more members. We discuss it and contribute accordingly, if you donít know the process of making a skin, or putting one on by the time you show up to OCMM you will.
This idea could use some fleshing out, and it would require that some of the more experience Metal Meet members participate and all of us to be involved. But if you and I donít do it, then who will? And if we donít do it now, then when?

Ok John,

I've been thinking of something for a long time, and after seeing your post about the VW ragtop I think this might be the right place to bring it up. You said initially that we should get together and build a car body, and I agree, we need more actual shaping content and I for one would love to work on a more substantial project.
I personally have wanted to build an aluminum Porsche 356 body for a beetle chassis (or custom beetle based chassis) for the last 20 years....and I have heard a bunch of other guys interested in the same concept. I think it would be a great starter, lots of shaping opportunities, and it is small and on an inexpensive platform.
If we could find someone with an original 356 that would let us take flexible shape patterns we would be in buisiness. I know there are a few people around this site with connections to the 356 world, so it shouldn't be that hard to find a donor, and the material cost wouldn't be too bad.
We could organize teams or sessions to work on the various parts, and I think it would give us some easier and some harder sections to shape, so nobody should feel left out or unchallenged.
What do you think?:?:

03-13-2010, 07:35 AM
Daniel has a great idea...

Currently I am talking with a couple of people I know locally to get a hold of a 356 body or a 550 body--

For this meet I am working on several fronts, a body for patterns and a chassis to build. My assistant at the shop has agreed to come in on Saturdays and work on the shop with me and work on the chassis for a month prior to the meet to build the inner structure.

Also, I have been working on getting most of the shop projects done and the shop cleared out and organized for the meet.

John A.

red baron
03-14-2010, 11:30 AM
I for one, really appreciate all the effort you guys are going through to set this up!

03-22-2010, 10:32 AM
OCMM structure is developing as follows.----- (as it develops more will be added)

OCMM : goal one of the OCMM group, is fostering the original spirit of MM, rebuilding of content of the MM library (content pertaining to the building of car panels, parts and patch panels)

OCMM Project: build the outer skins of a small car, creating tutorials

A team will consist of a Team Leader, 3-6 Team Members and a common project.

Current Team leaders are: Tony Sanchez and John Alba (WE would like to have 4-6 more team leaders,)

Each team leader is responsible for creating a tutorial on content that is pertinent to the creation of making a car panel i.e. door skin, fender, hood etc (or part of a panel). In the process of making these parts and panels over the next few months we will revisit the making of a flexible shape pattern, making a buck, profile gauges, paper patterns, wheeling techniques, plannishing, cutting material, use of clecos etc.

Team leaders will participate everyday of the event, including a shop orientation. They will be helping their team members every step of the process from the tutorials to the actual build.

Team Member:
Alan, dan34coupe, DanGunit, doug_walter2002, empireweld, fred26t, jaimev, Jim dyreson, KustomsRus, Mark W. Spigelmire, merlinsautobody, Pete's Metalshaping, Rat Bastard, red baron, RedBeard66, Rick (madera).

A new thread will be posted for OCMM team members and you are encouraged to:
Share YOUR REAL NANE with us
Post photos of one of your past projects ( at least one photo but more if you like)
Share something you learned that has been valuable to you- maybe it will help someone else.

Ask questions relating to our project- We want everyone to be more familiar with one another and the process of our build- a good question helps everyone.

( we need more MM members who want to be part of the OCMM goals and project )


03-22-2010, 10:46 AM

Please introduce yourself

red baron
03-22-2010, 02:33 PM

03-23-2010, 09:08 AM

Thanks to Kenb we now have a logo!


Tony S. and I will be meeting at my shop, the first weekend in April to create the first tutorial, and discuss the project.

more information to come.

John A.

03-29-2010, 08:15 PM
I am working on getting fiberglass parts to copy in steel or aluminum for this weekend ( Tony and I are going to do a tutorial )

But for the meet- Does anyone have access to a real 356 or 550?

I can probably drum up a fiberglass body for OCMM in September but ideally if we can copy a real car and not a copy- that would be the way to go don't you think?


04-04-2010, 07:58 AM
Hello All, well Tony, Mark and I meet up at the Fullerton shop to get started on some tutorials and everything went great-- with the exception of a minor English wheel problem.

First of we had two project the first was an early truck door.

we used an inflatable tube with a sanding belt to strip the door, it worked really well and didn't seem to remove any of the steel of the door Mark stripped the door in a few minutes

here we can see the corners need some attention, and it was decided to make the bottom half of the door skin

the door striped
we made some radius gages-in steel with the shrinker stretcher and another method we used was card stock- holding up the card stock, trace the profile-
http://grumpysmetal.com/metalmeet/metalmeet/GrumpysMeet25.jpg cut along the line
lay a strip of metal on your pattern
tape it flat
sand in if necessary

04-04-2010, 08:15 AM
Here is a really great idea for laying out a straight line- using banding material, it's strong, flexible, cheap and straight
banding material held down and the line is scribed
a grinder is used to remove the edge of the skin


with the cut line laid out we tried several methods to cut the line- here Mark is using a cut off wheel- it was very slow going as the inside of the door was caked with under coat ( in hind sight we should have stripped the door first of the undercoat)
Here I use a nibbler to make quick work of the rough cut of the skin
the nibbler leaves behind little rectangle bits and a slightly frayed edge
hand snips are used to give us a finished cut line
with a slapper and dolly the edge is smoothed out
with a file the edge is debured
We were able to cut the blank for this door- but we moved on to the next project before we could finish-- the 356 porsche door

04-04-2010, 11:04 AM
Next we attacked this 356 door skin- the door was in bad shape and was full of plastic and dents

we used the same stripper to remove the bulk of the plastic and paint from the top section of the door, followed by the DA

by using a sharpie as a visual aid to see what exactly you are dealing with
a slapper and dolly were used to get the dents and whooshes out
here transfer tape was laid out, the edge of the part was marked on the transfer tape with a pencil- above the transfer tape, strapping tape is laid across at approximately 45 degrees

When Tony and I looked at the door we both agreed the top of the door had the most shape and we decided to "practice" making that shape before we started out with one large blank
with the blank cut and deburred Tony's doesn't look happy with the way it's shaping up
moving to the slip roller we try to get the reverse bend tighter
with Marks fingers in the photo, both Tony and I agree we should give it another go with a smaller piece
This time, we rough out the shape in the wheel and tip the body feature and shrink --
This time the part really starts to take the right shape-- but we are out of time for the day and we need a smaller anvil for the ewheel so this will be continued in TWO Weeks

04-05-2010, 11:43 AM
Hey Guys,

Here's a little video of the Porsche factory making 356's in the early 60's for some idea generation and inspiration. :)


red baron
04-05-2010, 01:28 PM
When it comes time to have this meet, are there any inexpensive hotels nearby? I am just far enough that driving back and forth is probably not gonna work, unless someone from the north county San Diego area wants to carpool?

04-05-2010, 08:28 PM
Yes-- we have several inexpensive hotels in the area ( $45- up)


the first number I called was Fullerton Lodge and it is just over a half mile from the shop-- they said for a single person it's $45 a night and $50 on the weekends.

John A.

04-22-2010, 08:18 AM
Hello All..

I have managed to work out getting a new fiberglass 550 body to the shop for us to use for patterns

here is an image of a finished car ( the one we are getting will still be in gel coat)

http://image.kitcarmag.com/f/10184075+w750+st0/0805kc_01_z+1955_porsche_spyder_550+vintage_spyder .jpg

I just spoke with the guys at vintage spyder and they said we should have it the following weekend that's by the first of the month!

John A.

Rick (madera)
04-22-2010, 08:47 AM
Nice scoe John!
That looks like a fun group Project:)

04-22-2010, 01:54 PM
That's my dream project John. It's great that you got a body like that to copy.

04-27-2010, 10:19 PM
I have been working on getting a 550 porsche body- and today I picked up the chassis today!!! Tomorrow the body will be delivered to the shop!


here is the chassis in the back of my toyota


They have just broken the body out of the mold and will "debur" it


here is completed car that was at the spyder shop--- it's the same body we are going to build at the September meet


another body shot-- there are a bunch of inner panels, a couple of door skins and hood skin- along with an inner structure that will show up tomorrow.


the guys were still laying out the fiberglass for the rear bonnet when I came by the shop- they said tomorrow I will have all the parts.

Today I shifted some cars and stuff around the shop so I have room for both the body and chassis.

This weekend if I can get a couple of the local guys to meet up at the shop we will start with the details on making the parts, panels, inner structure, forms, fixtures, bucks, patterns and plans---

Who's coming?

John A.

Randy Ferguson
04-27-2010, 11:25 PM

What a cool deal!!

Can't make any promises this far in advance, but if you'd let a shabby old tin basher from Illinois come out to play, I'd like to be involved.

What a great project! Are you planning to do it like we did the first body skin build for FormFest '01?? Flexible shape patterns and contour gauges were made from Wayne Rogers Ascot body and shipped all over the world for regional groups to make two dedicated parts for the project, with both being shipped to George King's shop. The idea was to use one panel for the body we were building and the others for Wayne.

It's a good way to get more people involved and keep the enthusiasm up.

Thanks for taking the lead on this.

anders nÝrgaard
04-28-2010, 07:06 AM
Great idea John http://metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

I'm going to do something alike as a project for the Viking meet 2010. Those who want to are going to build a scale model of a Bristol AC Acer. That car is the "ansister" of the AC Shelby Cobra :cool:

I'll be pretty busy building the body buck... and maybe the chassis frame, prior to the meeting :D

Would you consider coming over for the pattern contour gauge making part of it? :rolleyes: :D ;) Not much further from IL to DK, than from IL to CA :cool: :mrgreen:

04-28-2010, 08:19 AM
Well Randy, I am hosting several mini meets and we will build the inner structure and make patterns and different preparations to stream line the building process in September.

Actually something I am working on is a flange jig-- Instead of building bucks.

Basically, an exoskeleton in .125 steel angle iron. The perimeter only is formed with the angle iron and welded together. The vertical edge of the angle iron terminates at the edge of the panel.

Once the exoskeleton (flange jig) is made .125 aluminum flat stock (.500 to 1" wide) is placed on the inside of the flange jig and located with a bolt every 6 to 10 inches.

The panel/part is formed with a buck, paper pattern or flex pattern- arrange the part inside the flange jig ( mark and drill the locating hole in the part) and bolt the inner aluminum strip, sandwiching the part between the angle iron. (using the bolts and clamps the flange can be registered and turned in the jig)

IF the part has a feature at the flange location that can not be turned between the angle iron and the aluminum strip then- the angle iron is formed around the feature and duraglass is used both on the angle iron and the aluminum strip to replicate the feature on the body. (essentially creating a male and female of the feature)

This is what I've come up with to supply the 3D information of the flange area with out the creation of a female/ male buck. With this jig all the edges can be turned with the correct relation to one another and in the correct arrangement.


ps- I forgot to mention all the inner structure is formed to match the inside of the flange jig- with the aluminum strip removed and a .063 shim in it's place the inner structure can be made to live in it's correct location without any guess work.

04-28-2010, 08:23 AM
I will post photos and the method this weekend.

John A.

Randy Ferguson
04-28-2010, 08:37 AM
Hi John,

Please do post some pictures of that process. I'm not following what your doing or why.

Are you just borrowing the fiberglass body?

Personally, I wouldn't worry about making any kind of buck for this project. You have all the information you need with the fiberglass body. If you made flexible shape patterns of the entire car with accurate contour gauges, that should be all you need. By making the cut lines in the shape patterns along the weld seams, it's a matter of trimming the panel to the edge of the shape pattern, lining up adjacent panels and welding them together. For the flanges, just make notes on your shape patterns for how much flange is needed. A few dollies and body hammers and you can turn about any flange.

Please don't take this the wrong way. My intention is to try to save you a lot of extra time that you could spend on building panels instead of bucks, jigs, whatever.

04-28-2010, 08:51 AM

The purpose of the flange jig is so every part and gap will be correct regardless of skill of the creator.

We will have a seminar on flex patterns, gauges and notes ( color, numbering and marks on the patterns) The way Wray teaches. But at the end of the day I would like to see people with a range of skill work on this project but when the meet is over all the parts fit and correct gaps.


red baron
04-28-2010, 09:25 AM
I will do my best to come up, what days and what times are you gonna be working? Anyone else coming from the San Diego/Oceanside area want to carpool?

04-28-2010, 09:47 AM
Excellent job John, that 550 will make a great build project! What day are you meeting in your shop?

P.S. Did you get the chassis to build on, or to use as a guide to build one from scratch?


Tony Sanchez
04-28-2010, 01:05 PM
I can be there on Satuday.

04-28-2010, 08:20 PM
This saturday May 1st 2010-- we are going to start up around 8 am

please let me know who's in as it stands right now.

Tony +1
and ??


red baron
04-28-2010, 10:15 PM
Mike M. And Rex C. will be coming up from Oceanside, as long as you dont mind total beginners! lol

04-28-2010, 11:16 PM
I'd like to attend this OCMM in September, I must warn you though I'm as green as they come. I will be attending the MM in Santa Cruz this May so I hope to gain some skill by September.

Do you have any more information other than the dates? Address, time costs, etc etc.

04-29-2010, 06:51 AM
OCMM meet information:

September 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th we are having a meet here at Grumpy's Metal. (Cost will be $60 for attendees and no charge for team leaders)

Official hours TBD - Some safety gear will be provided i.e. Safety glasses, ear plugs, and some gloves will be available. Food will not be provided but we will have sodas and water available. ( there are lots inexpensive of places to eat and stay very close)

This will be a structured event with 30-40 attendees in teams of 5 to 7 people with one team leader for each group all working on a common project.

The project is a 550 spyder (building all the outer skins in Aluminum)

Between now and September, we will have a series of mini meets with a few of the group leaders and participates to organize the content and out line the project.

Also few hard working souls will be contributing their time along with me to get the inner structure sorted out prior to the meet.

For the record I am putting out the line share of the resources out on this project. This is NOT a customers car. I do hope that with the work spent prior to the meet and with the contributions of the attendees that I can complete this project with a motor, trans electrical and brakes-- and actually drive it. At the end of the day if you help build a panel and it finds it way to the car the credit is your but the panel is mine.

In addition to the build, we will be having a few demos everyday and open discussions about different techniques and the project itself. It is my hope that if you decide to attend you come prepared to work, learn, share and get along.

Thank you

John Alba
Grumpy's Metal
720 East Walnut Ave. suite B
Fullerton CA 92831

04-29-2010, 08:14 PM
John ;
I've been wanting to get up there but I've been having issues with my house that won't let me go and it will probably be June before I have the work all done so I can get back into the metalmeet mode, so I hope to be able to join in by then. this sounds like a great project and will definately be a great learning experance for all who participate. Sorry I can't make it there any sooner

Gale Skinner

Tony Sanchez
04-29-2010, 09:13 PM
---John, Mark and I will be there at 0900 this Saturday. Do you want me to bring any tools? e-wheel?

04-30-2010, 08:45 PM
Will you bring your shrinking dies- Mine should be in any day but till then.

The agenda tomorrow is to: Outline a working strategy on building the body and inner structure.

Tomorrow will be a meeting of the minds- I would like to get you guys to make some suggestion on the work stations and the layout of the shop.

But- beside working on some inner structure stuff.. ...

If you want to bring your wheel by, we can make some flexible shape patterns too.

I've got my wheel and I still have some tape- I did get 10 sheets or so of 19 gauge but very little aluminum until the end of next week.

See you tomorrow ( oh do you have any UHMW dies for an air chisel?)

John A. 714 328 1028

Randy Ferguson
05-02-2010, 06:23 PM

What are you plans for the inner structure? Are you interested in building it like the original or not? I've found a few websites that have some pretty good pictures of how the inner structure was built and from what I can gather, there are detailed drawings floating around out there as well.

05-03-2010, 08:26 AM
Hello All- Well the meet this weekend was a great success (or at least I feel it was) I learned a lot and working with the guys gave the project needed direction.
In the morning the guys showed up. We stared at the body and the chassis for a while Tony finally came right out and said what everyone one was thinking ďJohn this is going to be a lot of workĒ
Here is a photo of the guys bolting down the kick shrinker- I didnít have it quite ready to use ( first lesson of the day- Be prepared: I took notes all day and came to the conclusion that I need to have the shop well stocked and tooled, ready to work- honestly I fell a little short on Saturday.

Mike and Mark working on 19 gauge angle to match the c-pillar

Blake is cleaning up the edge of this panel to start his wire form-- does someone who attended have a photo of the finished form?

We all discussed how to proceed thought the day and came up with several ideas

*First thing we agreed on was we need an inner structure to build the skins to. (The skins can be built independent of a body but until they are fit to an inner structure- itís just art)
*Because this body is fiberglass it canít accurately be used to build an inner structure to so an exoskeleton was the best idea that we could move forward with.
Here is where the learning really started:
Originally I said lets use angle, Tony said letís use sheet and finally we came up with a combination of 19 gauge angle and ľ rod. But the day was a progression of ideas and we tried several concepts that pushed the envelope.
The conclusion on the exoskeleton:
3 piece wire form ( like a bondo buck but the female, with dura-glass just 1Ē around the desired features)
****Front wire form- hood opening, front wheel arch opening and the a-pillars in one shot.
****Center wire form- door threshold, B-pillar; firewall over to the opposing side and the C-pillars
****Rear wire form- bonnet opening where it meets the c-pillars and firewall, and the wheel well openings

Bracing will be added with ľĒ rod but no plastic or fiberglass will be used to reinforce the structure.

Next development-
****To channel the duraglass double sided tape and plastic angle will be used. We discovered that with double sided tape and the use of a plastic angle the duraglass can be applied very well on the edges of the exoskeleton.
The plastic form a very nice enclosure for the dura-glass and help with defining the edge and prevent wasted material.
We didnít have a good release agent and found that car wax really does not cut it. We need a good release agent for the next meet.

We also made a form using duraglass and 1/8" wire but it was too flimsy, it was a good learning process as it really helped develop several of the conclusions listed above.

John A.

05-03-2010, 08:35 AM
Tony and I are going to take some patterns and send them out, the same way you guys did the Ascot. I would really like to build all the outer skins at the meet in September, but if we have panels already made it can only help.

Randy are you interested in getting a pattern or two for the project? Anyone else interested in being sent a flexible shape pattern and some gauges?

Since the chassis is completely different than an original car the inner structure will be different. The dash and door structures will be similar but at the end of the day it's all custom.

John A.

Randy Ferguson
05-03-2010, 09:06 AM
Hi John,

Yes, I am interested. You decide what aspect of it you'd like to have me involved in and I'll take a couple panel from that section. When we discussed this the other day on the phone, you mentioned having me help with the rear bonnet. If that's still what you're thinking, then whenever you have the shape patterns and gauges made, ship them out. Once I get them, I'll schedule a regional meet here to work on those panels. I think it will help to keep things moving forward to have several regional meets to work on this project so the bulk of the shaping is done in September. There will be a lot of welding and finishing to do as well as some shaping left to do, but in the end, if you wait until your big meed in September to try to get all the panels shaped, welded and planished, it probably won't get finished.

This is the most exciting thing to happen to MetalMeet in a while!!! Everyone has the opportunity to be involved in the learning process and John gets a cool car in the end. This is what Metalmeet is really all about!

red baron
05-03-2010, 12:41 PM
I put up all the pics that came out decent in my gallery, take a look and see if any of those will work for you! Let me know what days during the week and I should be able to get them off, if there is enough time to get it worked out.

Tony Sanchez
05-03-2010, 01:52 PM
---Here are some of the photos I took at John's shop.

The project



Mark and Mike






05-03-2010, 09:26 PM
Randy- We are going to have another mini meet here in another two weeks. We can make patterns of the rear bonnet and profile gauges. You schedule your meet and depending on the timing of the meet I will try and join you guys.

if you take a look at the rear bonnet, let me know where you want the gauges and we will do it.

will that work?

John A.

05-04-2010, 12:24 AM
Hi John,

i`d be interested in doing a front or rear fender.

can have a small meet for anyone close by.


05-05-2010, 07:20 AM
Gary we are going to have a meet either the end of next week or the following week. I'm sure we will have something to send you then.

Tony are you interested in making flexible shape patterns to send out. I would like for use to document the patterns and gauges that we make so it's going to take twice as long to make them. Let me know when you can make it out. Maybe we should take the time and just make patterns for the whole car.



Here we used the double sided tape and the plastic angle (and foil tape) to create the exoskeleton.

The double sided tape and plastic worked great- it went on fast, conformed to the fender and was very ridged when we pushed the filler against it. ( and it was cheap)

The foil is not a viable option, it went on slow, was flexible and it was expensive.

we used car wax for a release and had a lot of trouble removing the part, in the future we need to use a better release agent.

thanks for the photos Mike- when are you guys ready to come back up?

05-05-2010, 07:53 AM
Hi John,

i remember doing 2 small panels for the Ascot at that time,

If there are a few for this car i want to get involved so you will have parts that realy came from overseas....


Randy Ferguson
05-05-2010, 08:19 AM

I've tried using car wax before too. It doesn't work well at all. Two that I have had good luck with is Minwax furniture paste wax and S.C. Johnsons paste wax for furniture, wood floor, etc. Apply the wax 2-3 times before applying the fiberglass for best results. On steel, it isn't a big deal, but going over fiberglass or bondo it needs that extra wax to release easily.

05-05-2010, 08:23 AM
John I make small bondo buck patterns all the time for my Pullmax & Shapster. I just put down a row or 2 of blue painters tape first, the buck pattern comes right up but I have not tried a large panel yet just a thought on a trial.

anders nÝrgaard
05-05-2010, 08:49 AM
Hi John,

i remember doing 2 small panels for the Ascot at that time,

If there are a few for this car i want to get involved so you will have parts that realy came from overseas....


Had the same thoughts too, Ben. :) If a few small patterns could be shipped, maybe we could make the panels during Viking Meet :cool:

05-05-2010, 09:18 AM
Hi John,

we are starting to get excited out here about group participation , making patterns of the whole car and getting some sent out seems like a good idea.

the sooner that portion happens, the better chance of being able to have panels back for your fitting at the meet. by the end of your meet it will start looking like a car.


Tony Sanchez
05-05-2010, 09:41 AM
---John, the next week end that I can get away will be on May 29. If your shop is available on May 13, I can go and start making patterns and gages. I may also talk Mark into joining us.
I think that it would be great to send out some patterns and gages for the members to make. I have the perfect part for Ben to make, not to big and easy shipping.

Rick (madera)
05-05-2010, 09:42 AM
John, do you plan to bring any patterns to the Santa Cruz Metalmeet?

Tin Head
05-05-2010, 01:58 PM

I've tried using car wax before too. It doesn't work well at all. Two that I have had good luck with is Minwax furniture paste wax and S.C. Johnsons paste wax for furniture, wood floor, etc. Apply the wax 2-3 times before applying the fiberglass for best results. On steel, it isn't a big deal, but going over fiberglass or bondo it needs that extra wax to release easily.

I second the Johnsons paste wax with 3 coats, 4 coats if it's someone elses model. I thinks it builds better than modern car waxes. Buff lightly between coats. I've used release agent as well and the Johnsons works as well I think and is cheaper. My Johnsons is from the early '70's and is about gone, but the formula may be the same today.

red baron
05-05-2010, 07:09 PM
---John, the next week end that I can get away will be on May 29. If your shop is available on May 13, I can go and start making patterns and gages. I may also talk Mark into joining us.
I think that it would be great to send out some patterns and gages for the members to make. I have the perfect part for Ben to make, not to big and easy shipping.

I can try to get the 13th off too if that works for everyone?

05-05-2010, 08:02 PM
Hey Everyone-

So Tony yes I'll shut down on Thursday the 13th and we can make patterns to send out. I just ordered 6 rolls of 1" and 3 of .750" and 1 roll of 1.5" strapping tape.

I don't have much transfer tape, but I will see if I can get some.

Mike if you guys want to shoot up on the 13th that would be great, I think we will be making gauges and flex patterns most of the day but we also might have a chance to get started on the exoskeleton- either way you guys are welcome.
Mike-- thanks for the help with the kick shrinkers I have got the weight and they are both done. I spoke with Neil and I should have the dies in the machines before our next meet.

Gary, Ben, Randy, Rick and anyone else, we should be able to knock out a bunch of patterns on the 13th. I will send them along with the gauges to you guys.

Also I will post pictures of the pattern on the part and the gauges for you to see.

ALSO I ordered 15 sheets of 48x144 x .063 3003 Aluminum

John A.

red baron
05-06-2010, 09:09 AM
Nice, just talked to Rex, he is good for Thursday, I should be as well. I told my work that I would need a day off, and they said they would work with me for it, but I wont know for sure till Monday.

Tony Sanchez
05-07-2010, 03:44 PM
---Here is a part that Mark and I started making for John's Porshe build during our Thursday meet in Menifee.

Mark at the e-wheel

Checking the part with the gage

Part after rolling and marked for tip

Tipping the flange

Part rolled and flanged

05-08-2010, 10:25 AM
Tony & Mark,

Nice start guys! How long did it take to make the panel with the e-wheel set up with the go-cart slick and UHMW lower anvil? Did you just tip the edge of the panel around with a hammer and dolly, or did you have to use a shrinker on the inner curves?


Randy Ferguson
05-08-2010, 10:57 AM
Tony, Mark, It's lookin good. Can't wait to see this thing start coming together.

Tony Sanchez
05-08-2010, 04:57 PM
---Thanks for the comments guys.
Actually it didn't take much time to do the panel. I started with a slip roll and got the panel curved and Mark used the e-wheel for some final tuning. I used a bead roller to start the tip on the edge then a wrench, hammer and dolly to finish it.

05-08-2010, 05:17 PM
Looking good Tony-


here some of the supplies I bought for the meet

The aluminum should have already shown up but it will be here Monday!

John A.

05-12-2010, 05:30 PM
Hey Guys--- I was not able to get transfer tape- please bring some if you got some.

I can get some after 10 am-

but the aluminum came in



ps-- I don't think I can find the time Rick to make it to the Santa Cruz meet (I've got some busy busy stuff going on here), but I would love to send you guys some patterns

Tony Sanchez
05-12-2010, 09:37 PM
---John, I will bring some transfer tape. Mark and I will be there about 9 am.

05-12-2010, 09:40 PM
sounds good-- See you then

Mike are you and Rex coming out still?


red baron
05-13-2010, 08:18 AM
Ya, we are coming! Be there a little after 9.

05-13-2010, 06:50 PM
just got a chance to look at this thread and a couple pages back you were talking about a release agent and I have used two inch masking tape to take fiberglass molds on body parts. I had to make a custom bumper for a corvette and the area where it attached to the body hade a lot of complex curves so I covered them with masking tape [the kind automotive painters use] and gouped on the marglass and roughed in the part when it was all set up it poped right off the tape and I had a part that fit the body perfectly I'm not real clear on how your using it but if your doing it the way I've seen Randy Ferguson do it when I went to mm06 In oblong than it should work fine and best of all its relatively cheap and protects the surface your taking a pattern of. I'm still working on my house so I can't get away its all being done by volunters from my church so most of the work is done on the weekends. Hopefully it will be done sometime in June and then I can join in. All the good stuff is going on when I am tied up and can't gut away, I also have to miss the Santa Cruse meet and I really wanted to go. Later

05-16-2010, 01:09 PM
Well- We did it again. Last week we had another mini meet here at Grumpy's Metal.

The regular crowd showed up Tony, Mark, Mike, Rex and myself John- Blake was busy working his job and couldn't make it.


The mission was to make some progress on this project and make some flexible shape patterns.

When making several patterns for a car it's nice to have good reference. (If you have good reference you won't spend as much time, wasting your time.)

We labeled the patterns and car as follows:


Red is for the part/ pattern number ( imagine if we make 15 patterns for the car this number would be 1-15 or maybe 15 LEFTS and 15 RIGHTS) by using the same color for all part names/ numbers or letters- you will always know which pattern goes with which part.

Green is for the number/letter of the contour gauge ( all gauges will be marked in RED with the part number/letter and in GREEN for the number of the gauge) -- it maybe possible to have 2 number 3 gauges but each one will have the part they are assigned to in RED

Green lines are laid out that corrispond to the gauge and are numbered on your fsp. When you have the correct shape finding the correct arrangement becomes much simpler.

Blue is used as registration between parts- As the patterns are take, laid out made and cut BLUE registration marks are made between one fsp and the next. Because you have several lines in Blue the orientation between the two patterns is easily seen.

Step 1.
With a clean surface- either draw in lines or use a fine line tape where you are going to break you panels up.

Step 2.
Lay out low tack tape ( transfer tape ) with little or no overlap, use a razor if need be to cut away excess tape. Compress the tape onto the panel and run any air or bubbles out of your tape ( use a razor, your fingers or spreader)


During this step profile gauges can be made and laid out in green on your transfer tape- it can be done directly on the car before as well but if you lay it out on the transfer tape the lines can be seen through the pattern when done



Step 3.
Lay out filament tape ( fiberglass reinforced tape) at approx. 45% to 135% of the transfer tape-- it just needs to not run the same way, no need for a protractor. When laying out the filament tape use 1/4 to 1/3 overlap. Keep the tape taunt and avoid wrinkles.


Step 4.

Carefully peal up the pattern, both the transfer tape and filament tape should come off together. Peal in the direction opposite the tape and start on the corner where you began- whatever you do be cautious not let you pattern separate.

Step 5. Use talc powder ( baby powder) to "kill" the tack of the fsp sticky side

The flexible shape pattern has evolved over time. This is the way I learned from Wray. I am sure there are other ways-when I first saw Wray doing this, I thought "that's clever".

John A.

05-17-2010, 08:55 AM
These mini meets have proven invaluable for the learning process.



During this last meet we made fsp and contour gauges, and Mike and Rex bolted the body to a cart, but what we discovered was the rear bonnet and body needed to be aligned and in the correct position prior to making the gauges.


The bonnet is missing the inner structure and had no inclination to go into position. We worked on it but had little success lining the bonnet and body up. --- Also in this photo we used clear packaging tape to cover the louvers so a fsp could be taken without the louvers being in the way.

This last weekend I started fresh and took several measurement and discovered the left and right side are very different.


I cut about an inch off one side of the bonnet where it meets the body and bolted the bonnet down--- Now I have a good fit and the measurements are xcellent!

red baron
05-18-2010, 09:59 AM
Lookin good John! Which side did you have to trim for the fit? Lookin forward to comin back, hopefully we can all be a little more productive this time lol!

05-18-2010, 11:52 AM
Mike, The passenger side was long. I plan on mounting the door skins too.

Next time you guys come over it should be ready for fsp and the jig we keep talking about.

When can you come out?

I'm still working the order of this project out but for right now it's roughly as follows

-- 1st mount door skins
-- make fsp and gauges to send out to MM participants
--3rd working from contour gauges and the exoskeleton start the inner structure ( I believe a lot of time will go into this step)

I will begin to take blocks of time off with my helper and work on the inner structure. I'm thinking next month two or three Saturdays and one full week.

In July I will shut the shop down everyday until the inner structure is done.

With the inner structure done- I will move to set the shop up for the meet.


Tony Sanchez
05-18-2010, 12:49 PM
---John, that sounds like a good plan. The The gauges are a little time consuming, maybe we can get together again on a Thursday and get some of that done. I sure would like to send some of those patterns out to the members that would like to participate in this build.
Looks like I am going to get the Bank Account Barracuda streamliner back into my shop for some modifications, That will take up some of my extra time.

05-18-2010, 06:11 PM
Tony- I would really like to do the fsp as well. I'm ready when you are. I think if we just do patterns we could get the bulk of the car done in one sitting.

I'm open, lets do it.

You name it.


red baron
05-19-2010, 03:29 PM
The week following the Santa Cruz meet I will be too busy to come out, the one after that I could get a day off though.

05-23-2010, 08:25 AM
Hello All,

Pretty sure Tony and I will be meeting this Thursday to do fsp and gauges of the entire right side of the car. And I think Mike and Rex are available this weekend so we will meet then as well.


Yesterday I mounted the door skin. it fits well but it was a bit long where it meets the a pillar so I shaved it back.
Also I took a profile gauge Rex made and transfered it to some aluminium- this will be the master for the rockers and the area from the b-pillar to c-pillar ( and most of the bottom area of the doors.)


05-23-2010, 08:48 AM
Hi John,

This is a terrific tutorial http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif. You and your team are making great progress. The pictures added to your essay are first class.

This is my dream project - and only a dream, I'm sure - so I am following your build closely.


05-28-2010, 08:38 AM
Hello All,

Well, we have gotten together for another mini meet to prepare for the September OCMM- Tony showed up sharply at 9 something and Casey and I had just started working on the fsp .

Casey worked all day an knocked out about a dozen gauges and tape up some of the front end—!!!


Using a strip of card stock- green lines were drawn where the contour gauges will be registierd

Tony did a lot of taping all day, he really did a great job



We used some insulation foam to cover the large opening and then used foil tape to cover the foam.



By the end we had the whole right side done in patterns and gauges


And we managed to do the dash too!


05-28-2010, 08:45 AM
Hello Randy, We have gauges and fsp made of the 550 Porsche spyder, are you still interested in having a meet out at your place?


I am not sure who will come to your meet but if I can break a way I will come to your meet- I would love to get some pointers from you and see you in ACTION!!


05-28-2010, 10:51 AM
Hi John,

Now that was a lot of work - all those contour gauges alone are time consuming. The "crew" is doing an excellent job.

Randy Ferguson
05-28-2010, 11:57 AM
Hello Randy, We have gauges and fsp made of the 550 Porsche spyder, are you still interested in having a meet out at your place?


I am not sure who will come to your meet but if I can break a way I will come to your meet- I would love to get some pointers from you and see you in ACTION!!

Hi John,

Yes, I am interested in hosting a meet to make panels for the Spyder. I'll have to look at my schedule to see when I can do that. June is a very busy month for me and July is filling up pretty quick as well.

red baron
05-28-2010, 04:40 PM
Let me know the next time you guys are gonna meet up, and I will see if I can re-arrange stuff at work to make it up!

Its lookin good though!

05-28-2010, 05:53 PM
Can you guys make it this weekend??

Call me 714 328 1028

red baron
05-29-2010, 12:32 PM
Holiday weekends are really tough for me to get off, I will let
Rex know and see if he can get up there to help. I have monday and tuesday off, but I have to put the motor back in my 54 Ford those 2 days.

05-29-2010, 07:05 PM
Mike, Rex, Tony and Blake-- Can you guys make it next Saturday-- June 5th?

I'm going to try and finish up the gauges and patterns. Next week we can work on some aluminum if that weekend works out for us.


Tony Sanchez
05-29-2010, 08:43 PM
---John, June 5 is out for me, I have a function that I have to attend.

red baron
05-30-2010, 11:07 AM
I will get on it and let you know asap!

06-06-2010, 06:52 AM
Hello All,

We have some patterns ready to send out, I know that Randy, Anders, Ben and Gary said they might be interested in making a part-

Are you guys still interested?

Let me know and I will send them your way- ( it would be nice if we could get a few words and photos as you make the part too )


John 714 328 1028 John@GrumpysMetal.com

06-06-2010, 10:53 AM
Hi John,

I`d like to get patterns for a front fender.

talked to my buddy about doing a small meet at his shop to make pieces and its a go.

i have three people that have expressed interest already in being part of it, anybody that would like to be at the meet , pm me.


06-06-2010, 06:56 PM
Sure Gary- Give me your address and I will send the pattern and gauges out--

Randy are you still interested?


Randy Ferguson
06-06-2010, 08:01 PM

Yes, count me in!!


06-07-2010, 07:55 PM
Ok Randy-- I will send you and Gary out some fsp ( Gary just sent me his address)

Anders and Ben you guys interested?


06-07-2010, 08:22 PM
Sorry John, the thrash to get ready for the roadster show started last weekend, I'm doing 7 day weeks for the next three

anders nÝrgaard
06-08-2010, 05:38 AM
Ok Randy-- I will send you and Gary out some fsp ( Gary just sent me his address)

Anders and Ben you guys interested?


Hi John,

Yes... would be perfect for the Viking Meet June25 thru June 30 ;)

Just don't send patterns for to large parts.... shipping the panel back to California will be... OUTRAGEOUS/HIGH WAY ROBBERY :eek: :eek: :D

06-08-2010, 06:23 AM
Ok Anders--PM me with your address-

I will send out the fsp this week to all you guys

Thanks John

06-16-2010, 03:52 PM
Hey Guys-- I've been super busy around the shop, trying to finish up stuff here.

I've fallen behind so, this weekend and next week I am going to take 4 or 5 days and dedicate time to this build. My helper has agreed and it would be great if some of you local guys could come by.

The plan is to make more fsp and gauges, currently we are missing a few and the plan is to digitize them so we can send out "copies" to other members.

Also we will be doing a lot of the inner structure and misc panels.

Let me know if you can make it


Tony Sanchez
06-16-2010, 10:18 PM
---John, I have been down with a super bad case of bronchitis for the last week. I think that I am starting to get better, hopefully, I will try to get with you next week. Let me know what day would be the best.

06-17-2010, 08:52 AM

I will be working on the 550 this Saturday and Sunday and 3 days next week. Any day you want to come down is fine with me.

The parking is better on the weekends though.


red baron
06-17-2010, 10:00 AM
Rex and I were just talking about when to come up next, I will talk to him and see what we can do. This weekend for me will be tough, but I have Tuesday and Wednesday off, so maybe one of those days?

Tony Sanchez
06-17-2010, 10:35 PM
---I would rather go on a Saturday, but this week end is out. Maybe I can make it on Wednesday.

06-19-2010, 08:53 PM
Hey Guys,

So I had a mini meet today- Just me.
I had the tape pattern from one of the earlier meets.

I cut out a blank


I didn't want to invest too much time so, I cut out a piece of card stock close to the center of the dash- then I used transfer tape to make up where the card stock fit wasn't 100%. by laying the tape into the corners and tracing where the flat panel ends and the edge is turned up, it was easy to cut a correct size pattern


Tip- shrink- shrink shrink- The panel started to work harden so I annealed it a couple of times. Made working the aluminum much easier



All the parts need more work but its a start in the right direction


who is coming out and when?

red baron
06-22-2010, 08:28 PM
cant make it up tomorrow, and Rex is having a business meeting....:(

anders nÝrgaard
07-10-2010, 10:46 AM
Forgot to tell you something guys :D

This Danish Company http://www.simonsen-356.dk/ has got one of the ORIGINAL wooden plugs for the 550 sitting outside :eek: :eek: :eek: under a tarpolene (sp?)

They already built two in aluminum http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

08-02-2010, 06:35 PM
John I have been trying to reach you cince last Friday to bring you some $$$. Fred 26T fredbarnes@dslextreme.com Thanks

08-07-2010, 10:31 PM
Hello All,

I am away until the 14th on vacation. this is the first time I have been able to check the site since I have been gone.

Fred, I just got an email you dropped by. send me an email or pm and I will call you when I am back in town.



08-16-2010, 07:18 PM
John I can't find a e-mail for you on this site. Will you be in your shop around 4:00-4:30 Tuesday. I went by today at 3:30 but you and Casey were gone. I don't want to put my phone number on the metalmeet web site. try me at fredbarnes@dslextreme.com. Thanks. Fred26T

08-16-2010, 11:50 PM
John I can't find a e-mail for you on this site. Will you be in your shop around 4:00-4:30 Tuesday. I went by today at 3:30 but you and Casey were gone. I don't want to put my phone number on the metalmeet web site. try me at fredbarnes@dslextreme.com. Thanks. Fred26T
Hi Fred,

send John a private message, thats the best way to get him your phone number.


08-26-2010, 06:33 AM
Hello Guys,

Just wanted to announce that there will be a new tool addition at the OCMM for those of you interested (T-3 pullmax)


we should have it up an running for the meet. And we are planning two demos a day so we will definitely do some louvers, beads and doming among other things.

Does anyone have a recommendation for demos they would like to see at the meet?