First Post

[Chris Rinke]

I've been a member for a wihile but have never posted anything.There is so much info here that my time has been spent reading and learning.

[Tin Head]

Chris,

I had been wondering if you were a member here. Still wanting to get with you and get some stainless for the shrinking disc we spoke of. Been busy trying to get a new shop built. Contractors can sure drive a guy buggy, no offense intended. It was originally supposed to be done by the 4th...of July. Did you ever get a planishing hammer built?

Bob

[Boogiemanz1]

Hi Chris. How are you? Have you been doing any metalwork? If I remember correctly, at Edmond you made a bowl one day, did a flex shape pattern and made an identical bowl the next day.......I hope you kept going.

Glad you posted. I just got the photos of the Edmond Meet up before the site went down, I will try to get those in the gallery again soon.

Any plans to make MetalMeet?...........john

[Chris Rinke]

I normaly have some stainless piled up in a scrap bin, just let me know when you are comming over.

I built a 42" e-wheel similar to imperial wheels with 9"x4" top wheel and 3" bottom set. Also built a plannishing hammer with some ideas from Kansas City meet. I am in the figure it out stages of a helve hammer-will probably be similar to Tom Lipton's unless I see somthing better in the meantime.

[Tin Head]

Chris,

Before you start on a helve hammer, you need to take a look at an eletric hammer design I'm nearly finished with. Cost is probably the same as a well built helve and will run around 900 bpm. I'm thinking it will be much quiter than a helve. I've no intention of selling it, just willing to share when it's done.

I've borrowed, ok stolen, ideas here, on metalshapers and other hammer ideas I've seen. Ever seen the old Shrink Positive machine? Never did figure out who originally built that. We've got 4 yoders, an eckold and a large CP planishing hammer at work that I've taken ideas from that gave me the four basic things this hammer needs to do for me, stretch, shrink, planish and shape or profile. Wish I could have just taken the eckold. Right now I'm debating the issue of ram weight, but am thinking go lighter instead of heavier.

Wray and Jim Ballie are making the helves do some interesting things though and I believe they are doing the basics fairly well. Not trying to take anything away from them.

Are you going to Mark's (Nugents) the first of the month?

Bob

[beaulieu]

Hey Tin Head

I look thru your photo gallery but did not see anything on your electric powered hammer,

do you have the pictures up somewhere else ?

thanks

Beaulieu

[jlrussell4]

Have you fellas looked through the "Spys" album?

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Bob,

Have you seen the video of Ben and Spys' hammer?

It's in the Watch Free Video forum.

http://206.125.208.236/forum/showthread.php?t=1949

[Chris Rinke]

Bob,

I will not be be going to Mark's because I am coaching football thru November. I would like to see something on your hammer.
The cost on my helve is going to be low. I have been saving free junk for about 6 months.I have a clutch motor that cost me $100. Scrap steel tube $0. Salvaged shafts, pullys and bearings from exhaust fans $0.Springs from Atlas Spring scrap bin $0. Ideas from everybody on Metalmeet PRICELESS.

[Tin Head]

Hey Tin Head

I look thru your photo gallery but did not see anything on your electric powered hammer,

do you have the pictures up somewhere else ?

Beaulieu,

No pictures yet as I am still in the design phase. As my design elements get fairly locked down, I purchase the material or part by watching for a cheap price on them. Visited the Yard store weekly for a couple of months til just the right tubing came in and went home with more than enough for a hammer frame. A friend wanted to get rid of a trailer load of new steel plate and accepted my meager cash offer and he helped me get it in my shop. A couple of un-noticed ebay auctons that I won for one small bid and I got the motor, die holders, bearings and drive shafting.

Most of it is purchased or modified purchased parts. I'm trying to keep the machining to a minimum. The ram weight decision will impact the upper arm location as will the vertical seperation between the upper and lower die holders. It really isn't a build of what I have laying around, it is what will work best that is already available somewhere. The 2D design will follow the completed 3D model, then the build.

Have you seen the video of Ben and Spys' hammer?

Wray,

I saw the pictures Ben and Emile posted during the building of their hammer, and have watched their video a time or two. Nice hammer. Those two guys do nice work. At the time I was studying the inner workings of the Eckold at work, wondering if it could be shop made. Tried to buy an unused shop made yoder from work, then all of a sudden, they couldn't live without it. Then Ben and Emile inspired me with their hammer build as did Richard K and Dennis Wolfgang. I started gathering ideas. I've been watching your progression on your helve as well. You have a lot more hands on than I using metal shaping tools and machines, so some decisions probably come easier for you than they do for me. I like to design till I think I got it right, then build only once. This approach makes the design phase go slowly, but the build goes better. Probably something I picked up hanging around the airplane factory for better than 30 years.

I don't really have a deadline to finish it by, but would like to start cutting the frame material around the first of the year. My machinist is like Chris, off coaching football at present.

Bob

[Wray Schelin]

Wray,

I saw the pictures Ben and Emile posted during the building of their hammer, and have watched their video a time or two. Nice hammer. Those two guys do nice work. At the time I was studying the inner workings of the Eckold at work, wondering if it could be shop made. Tried to buy an unused shop made yoder from work, then all of a sudden, they couldn't live without it. Then Ben and Emile inspired me with their hammer build as did Richard K and Dennis Wolfgang. I started gathering ideas. I've been watching your progression on your helve as well. You have a lot more hands on than I using metal shaping tools and machines, so some decisions probably come easier for you than they do for me. I like to design till I think I got it right, then build only once. This approach makes the design phase go slowly, but the build goes better. Probably something I picked up hanging around the airplane factory for better than 30 years.

I don't really have a deadline to finish it by, but would like to start cutting the frame material around the first of the year. My machinist is like Chris, off coaching football at present.

Bob


Hi Bob,

My thinking is you can always design a better mousetrap but that doesn't mean you can sell it... If you go through this design and build stage be aware, unless you can improve on the performance of exisiting machines and concepts by a wide margin you will probably not find acceptance in the marketplace other than your own shop.:o

If anyone wants to build a Yoderlike power hammer it can be easily done using fabricated steel methods and updated components.

Yoders and Pettingel style large guided way hammers as a concept are both excellent designs that can be easily updated for better performance.

The question always with a Yoder or Yoderlike machine is do you have a situation that will allow you to have one in the shop. Noise levels, cost,and shop space are prohibitive for most. Cost whether you have an original or a newly fabricated one will be considerable.

If you do invest in a Yoder or Yoderlike machine will you make panels better and faster than other methods? I think not. Especially if the panels are detailed, complicated, and must be painstakingly fit many times to a buck to insure accuracy!

The next option is a Eckold machine.

A Eckold machine with a full compliment of tooling can cost more than a Yoder. These machines do produce panels very fast with little noise and they are mobile and have a small footprint, which saves much needed shop floor space. The major downside is their very high cost and they also make lots of stipple marks all over the panels.


Helve hammers
The helve hammer as a sheetmetal shaping machine provides the most bang for the buck because they are inexpensive to build, in fact they can be easily made from scrap or surplus components. They are also very versatile allowing many tooling potentials similar to a Pullmax yet they have the power of a Yoder if they are scaled to a professional size. The footprint is small compared to a Yoder which is a plus. Noise levels when using steel on steel tooling can be equal to a Yoder, using soft tooling they are loud but tolerable.


The next option is a Pullmax or smaller version of the Pullmax concept. Richard, Dennis, and the original small Pullmaxlike machine producer from Mooresville, NC ( I can't remember their name) all are doing excellent jobs with this market niche.

The next option is the E-wheel coupled with hand tucking and a beater bag. This is the method with the most appeal because of the initial low cost, relative small shop space used and the low noise factor. Panels made on a e-wheel have the nicest finish by far. My prefered method of shaping is the helve hammer coupled with the E-wheel as a planisher. The helve hammer allows me to easily stretch or shrink at will and very quickly. I have been using mine which I designed since 1994 . Jim Bailie has been an observant copier of my helve hammer methods in the last few years....

The E-wheel, especially with my five inch wide anvils and top wheel allows me to place a chrome- like smooth finish on any panel that I had previously shaped quickly with the helve hammer.

That said, to make a super accurate panel that has complicated surfaces and many details takes time. Final detailing on panels after flanges are in place often requires an air planishing hammer or dolly and slapper to finesse some small areas.


The question is: where do you see your new tool fitting in the current tooling spectrum ?

[Chris Rinke]

Wray,

Since I am not experianced at posting I figured I would continue here. I do have a few questions about helve hammers.

Assuming that my machine will be similar to your existing helve and Tom Liptpn's.
1) How many beats per minute recomended?
2) I will be using 2"x2"x1/4" tube 50" long for the hammer arm. Is wood better? If so why?
3) Is a counter balance on the back of the arm helpfull? I think it might be, but will it take more energy or less for the arm to start moving in the opposite direction for the down stroke? Adding a counter ballance will add to the total weight of the arm and it may or may not make it hit harder.
4) Leaf spring drive under the arm or extended to the rear? I see that your old one is under and the new one is to the rear.

Thank You, Chris

[Wray Schelin]

Wray,

Since I am not experianced at posting I figured I would continue here. I do have a few questions about helve hammers.

Assuming that my machine will be similar to your existing helve and Tom Liptpn's.
1) How many beats per minute recomended?
2) I will be using 2"x2"x1/4" tube 50" long for the hammer arm. Is wood better? If so why?
3) Is a counter balance on the back of the arm helpfull? I think it might be, but will it take more energy or less for the arm to start moving in the opposite direction for the down stroke? Adding a counter ballance will add to the total weight of the arm and it may or may not make it hit harder.
4) Leaf spring drive under the arm or extended to the rear? I see that your old one is under and the new one is to the rear.

Thank You, Chris

Hi Chris,

Take the time and read this thread from start to finish (10 plus pages).

http://206.125.208.236/forum/showthread.php?t=1932&page=1&pp=10

There are others on our site as well that cover helve design issues, you just have to root around for them. :grin: