larger width top wheel

[Welding_Engineer]

What are the problems or benefits to using an English wheel with a 3� x 8� top wheel and using 2� x 3� anvils? Will the larger width of the top wheel cause any problems?

Thanks,
Dave

[tdoty]

Actually, the wider upper wheel will help to stabilize the panel - lessening the chance of the upper leaving marks.

Tim D.

[FriarTuck]

There is no downside that I know of in combining a 3" upper and a 2" anvil. In fact you will gain stability in handling the panel because of the wider area on the upper wheel. There may be a very special application here or there that this would not apply, but in general, IMHO, this combination is probably one of the best general setups you could choose. This would allow you to handle reasonablly large panels without a helper using a "low crown" lower, without leaving track or scoring.

[Welding_Engineer]

Tim and Rick,

Thank you very much for the advice.

Thanks,
Dave

[Doug98105]

What are the problems or benefits to using an English wheel with a 3� x 8� top wheel and using 2� x 3� anvils? Will the larger width of the top wheel cause any problems?

Thanks,
Dave

If you have a narrow top wheel it's fairly easy to add "outriggers" to make it wider for panel support. The material added to widen the wheel doesn't have to be hard, it could even by hard rubber or wood since it doesn't do any forming, only provides panel support.

Dave Propst (sp) who posts once in awhile over on Metalshapers has a web site that goes into quite a bit of detail on this issue. Maybe someone knows the address of his site.

While we're on the subject of upper wheels, IMO the best choice is a large bearing. They're extremely hard, run true, and can be found at salvage yards for practically nothing. They're generally narrow, but by adding support to both sides you have the best possible upper wheel.

Doug

[Gene Newcomb]

http://www.davepropst.com/

[Welding_Engineer]

Thanks for the link to Dave Propst’s web site. A lot of very good information.

Thanks,
Dave

[FriarTuck]

Doug and Gene, the Dave Propst article is great. I'm keeping that one in the library.

[Wray Schelin]

If you have a narrow top wheel it's fairly easy to add "outriggers" to make it wider for panel support. The material added to widen the wheel doesn't have to be hard, it could even by hard rubber or wood since it doesn't do any forming, only provides panel support.

Dave Propst (sp) who posts once in awhile over on Metalshapers has a web site that goes into quite a bit of detail on this issue. Maybe someone knows the address of his site.

While we're on the subject of upper wheels, IMO the best choice is a large bearing. They're extremely hard, run true, and can be found at salvage yards for practically nothing. They're generally narrow, but by adding support to both sides you have the best possible upper wheel.

Doug


Hi Doug,

I wrote about the benifits of a wide wheel on metalshapers ( which I co-founded) from day one in April 2000. Dave Propst phoned me a short while after he showed up on metalshapers. He asked about and I told him about my top wide wheel experience. He wrote his article on his website several years later...


As for the benifits of a top wheel made from a hard center section and plastic edges, there is more effort to make one that way than making one out of steel all the way to the edge. There is also the danger of damaging the soft edges when accidently and improperly wheeling reverse curves.

Top wheels should be made from hardenable alloy steel 3/8 wall seamless tubing and then pressed onto a cast or billet center aluminum hub. That way would be the least expensive method to make top wheels of any width. All that is needed is a source for the alloy steel seamless tubing.

[Doug98105]

Hi Doug,

I wrote about the benifits of a wide wheel on metalshapers ( which I co-founded) from day one in April 2000. Dave Propst phoned me a short while after he showed up on metalshapers. He asked about and I told him about my top wide wheel experience. He wrote his article on his website several years later...


As for the benifits of a top wheel made from a hard center section and plastic edges, there is more effort to make one that way than making one out of steel all the way to the edge. There is also the danger of damaging the soft edges when accidently and improperly wheeling reverse curves.

Top wheels should be made from hardenable alloy steel 3/8 wall seamless tubing and then pressed onto a cast or billet center aluminum hub. That way would be the least expensive method to make top wheels of any width. All that is needed is a source for the alloy steel seamless tubing.

Hi Wray,

Yes, you should get credit for the wide wheel concept.

As to the effort in adding width, I disagree, it doesn't have to be a major project. Dave P complicated it, but everything he does looks like a part for the space shuttle. Starting with a narrow upper and adding width allows converting back and forth between narrow and wide.

I stand by my advice of using a large bearing. The two I have are approx 8" diameter and 1-1/2" wide, cost was 5 bucks each at the scrap yard (even buying new from a bearing house might be less than buying a $250 to $300 machined wheel). One of mine is unused salvage with very slight surface rust, the other was used. They're ultra hard, much harder than a wheel machined of pre-hardened alloy steel. They run true, within .001" total runout. I prefer a cantilever wheel mount, bearings are easy to do this way.

For the wheeling I do, the hardness of the bearing is needed. I don't do car or cycle work. My wheeling has been for garden art where I used rusty steel from the weeds behind the shop, wheeled right over the sand and grits without a thought. My lower anvils are fashioned from self aligning pillow block bearings, also extremely hard. If I needed, I could wipe my wheels clean and run aluminum with no hint of the previous sand and grit showing on the panels.

Regarding your suggestion of heat treatable seamless tubing over a core....IMO too much work and expense. Just the cost of heat treating in my area is a minimum of $75, not to mention dealing with the distortion. Then finding a steel service center who'll sell you a short section of large diameter alloy steel tube is a whole 'nother issue. This method requires far more machining capability than the average wheel builder will ever have.

Doug

[anders nørgaard]

I stand by my advice of using a large bearing. The two I have are approx 8" diameter and 1-1/2" wide, cost was 5 bucks each at the scrap yard (even buying new from a bearing house might be less than buying a $250 to $300 machined wheel). One of mine is unused salvage with very slight surface rust, the other was used. They're ultra hard, much harder than a wheel machined of pre-hardened alloy steel. They run true, within .001" total runout. I prefer a cantilever wheel mount, bearings are easy to do this way.
Doug

Hi Doug,
:o :o :o :o :o A bearing that size would be $900+ in DK... OK I'LL GET A 60% DISCOUNT THROUGH WORK, BUT STILLhttp://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Doug98105]

Hi Doug,
:o :o :o :o :o A bearing that size would be $900+ in DK... OK I'LL GET A 60% DISCOUNT THROUGH WORK, BUT STILLhttp://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

Hi Anders,

You may be right about the prices....at one time I found an online source of bearings around 8" diameter in the price range I quoted. Can't find the site anymore though.

Let's see, $900 - 60% = $360. How much will a machined wheel cost you over there?

BTW, I just got back from the salvage yard. They had a couple of bearings for less than $10 that'd work fine. That's Pacific Industrial in Seattle for the Northwest guys.

Doug

[anders nørgaard]

Hi Anders,

You may be right about the prices....at one time I found an online source of bearings around 8" diameter in the price range I quoted. Can't find the site anymore though.

Let's see, $900 - 60% = $360. How much will a machined wheel cost you over there?

BTW, I just got back from the salvage yard. They had a couple of bearings for less than $10 that'd work fine. That's Pacific Industrial in Seattle for the Northwest guys.

Doug

Hi Doug,
Dont know if I can explain to anyone here in DK, what I'm after and what hardness, so...... I just bought a 3x8 upper and 3 3x3 lowers from Hoosierhttp://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gifhttp://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gifhttp://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif... GREAT STUFF AND GREAT SERVICE http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[beaulieu]

How much does a 8x3 10x3 12x3 bearing weigh ?

any anyone know a surplus place in Southern Calif that would have cheap ones ?

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Wray,


Hi Doug,

I guess you just like to misunderstand me . <grin>

Doug wrote:

[QUOTE] Regarding your suggestion of heat treatable seamless tubing over a core....IMO too much work and expense. Just the cost of heat treating in my area is a minimum of $75, not to mention dealing with the distortion. Then finding a steel service center who'll sell you a short section of large diameter alloy steel tube is a whole 'nother issue. This method requires far more machining capability than the average wheel builder will ever have.


The top wheel build description I suggested was for someone that makes top wheels professionally for resale like Joe Andrews. It would be a lot more effective way of making wheels than hogging out solid billets of alloy steel like most professional top wheel builders do now.

Doug wrote:

I stand by my advice of using a large bearing. The two I have are approx 8" diameter and 1-1/2" wide, cost was 5 bucks each at the scrap yard (even buying new from a bearing house might be less than buying a $250 to $300 machined wheel). One of mine is unused salvage with very slight surface rust, the other was used. They're ultra hard, much harder than a wheel machined of pre-hardened alloy steel. They run true, within .001" total runout. I prefer a cantilever wheel mount, bearings are easy to do this way.


My first top wheel was a bearing which I bought new. It measres 8.5" x 2.5" and cost me about $325.00 in 1987.

I also have two other top wheels that are bearings that I bought for peanuts used.

Doug wrote:

My lower anvils are fashioned from self aligning pillow block bearings, also extremely hard.


I tried this same trick years ago. You are missing the boat bigtime by using a very limited utility true radius lower.

Results that you will get from that set up will look like you are English wheeling and they might even feel like you are English wheeling but I can tell you from experience you are not English wheeling. You cannot do anything but very limited small shapes by using narrow pillow block inner bearings as lower anvils.

[Doug98105]

Hi Wray,

I wrote:


My lower anvils are fashioned from self aligning pillow block bearings, also extremely hard.


Wray wrote:
"I tried this same trick years ago. You are missing the boat bigtime by using a very limited utility true radius lower.

Results that you will get from that set up will look like you are English wheeling and they might even feel like you are English wheeling but I can tell you from experience you are not English wheeling. You cannot do anything but very limited small shapes by using narrow pillow block inner bearings as lower anvils."


What I did was to mount the full radius bearings on the surface grinder to put flats with a blend radius, I forgot to mention this. Another thing which I haven't needed to do would be to add width to these similar to the upper wheel method.

The way I've used my wheel as a rock crusher (sand crusher) I can't imagine wanting anything but the hardest possible wheels, but then, that's just my preference.

Doug