What's a Hot Rod? Custom?

[ralph]

Wray asked me to lay out some pictures and definitions to go with the Hot Rod Build poll and the under $10,000 hot rod build thread. This list isn't complete, but it will give you an idea of the diversity available if your interested in building a rod. I've added a few Customs to help define that group.

First off, the generally accepted cutoff for hot rods is 1948 and earlier. The best reason I can fathom is that is when Ford dropped rear fenders and went to quarter panels. Customs are generally later, but there is a crossover from about 1935 on when the customs were built. The customs generally have style as their objective. Rods are supposed to be lean and mean.

You'll notice that most of the cars I've picked are Ford's. There's two reason's for that. First is a heck of a lot of Fords were built through 1948, so there is a lot of old Ford Iron sitting behind the barn. Second is I'm a Ford guy and its my post. :twisted:

First there is a whole group of rods built around the Model T. The very first rods were stripped down stockers that maybe had a exhaust cutout to make them go faster. They kind of looked like this. (but without the chevy engine)
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/Image082.jpg

T's were used for circle track racing clear up into the late 50's, often with hopped up A and B flathead 4's as well as some OHV conversions. Later cars used the flathead V8. Cars typical of that style are known as Track T's . They carry a race look nose and usually have a full bellypan.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3204/medium/nat420.jpg
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3204/medium/nat422.jpg
During the fifties the "Bucket T" evolved. It's normally credited to Norm Grabowski of Detroit who built "Kookies" car on the tv show "77 Sunset Strip"

The T bucket is identified by long front end caused by the the suicide front end (axle and tie rod in front of the cross member). It also has an abbreviated rear end witha short pickup box or just a beer keg gas tank.Here are two examples. One with partial fenders, the other with fenders and running boards.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/t-bucket.jpg
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/fendered_bucket_t.jpg

Some builders like their T's a little more civilized Here is a beautiful full fendered T Roadster and a "Telephone Booth T" coupe
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/full_fendered_roadster.jpg

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/tall_t.jpg

Ford introduced the A in 1928. The new body was a lot bigger and the bodylines smoother. It had a bigger better 4, so the next round of rods built came from these. Body styles were Coupes, Roadsters, 2&4 dr Sedans, Phaetons, Victorias, Pickups and variations of these. The 32 Model B came a few years later and again the 4 was upgraded, but the big news was the Flathead V-8. From 32 on the cars changed quite a bit from year to year and the V8 got more powerful. Clear up to 85 horse from 239 Cubic Inches in stock form.
Here is a picture of an A Coupe rodded to the extreme. One this low is usually called "hammered"
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/fenderless_coupe.jpg

A little less extreme is this coupe which is still chopped and channeled

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/chopped_and_channeled.jpg

Here is a picture of a 32 coupe mounted on top of the frame rails. The 32 rails became popular because of their good looks. While a 'true' "High Boy" is an A coupe or roadster mounted on 32 rails, any body mounted on 32 rails is genericaly called a Highboy.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/hiboy.jpg

Touring or phaeton bodies that are rodded are often called "Tubs" This is Greg Koesel's hand built tub. He built it on A rails and I know he'd believe $10,000 was an extravagent budget fot a rod. :lol: This guy is innovative.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/tub.jpg

Sedans are also chopped and chaneled as these two show. The first is fenderless and has a great flathead. The second is channelled only and is full fendered and represent a ton of work. Think about moving those fenders up! Sorry I couldn't find a better picture or another example. They are rare.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/Fenderless_Sedan.jpg
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/channeled_and_full_fendered.jpg

This 32 Chopped and raked (low front) coupe is less radical
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/full_fendered_coupe.jpg

This is probably the most popular of all street rods. The 32 Roadster.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/32_ROADSTER.jpg


An even less radical car is this A with an unmodified body, These are oftened called "Resto-rods"
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/resto_sedan.jpg

A newer craze is the Rat Rod. His license plate says it all. These crazies drove this thing from Kentucky to North Eastern Ohio and back.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/ratrod.jpg
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/no_ruls.jpg


From 35 on up the line starts getting closer to custom. As those cars lose their hood side panels they don't look as good without fenders as the earlier cars did without a lot of work to obtain a "look". There are some later cars that pull off fenderless or rear fenders only by looking like race cars from the era. They are few and far between.

Fat fendered cars are still plentiful, but they are usually resto rod types or have the top chopped. As you make more body mods you move toward a "custom car" such as this Merc (I think!) Now nobody is going to kick him out of a rod meet, but is this a rod or a custom?
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/hot_rod_or_custom.jpg

Right after the 48 cutoff Mercury introduced these. I've seen more chopped Mercs in the last 10 years than I did in the previous 50. Bondo hadn't been invented yet so seams and poor body work were leaded. These cars were often referred to as "lead sleds" James Dean made the Mercs famous in the movie "Rebel Without A Cause".
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/custom_coupe.jpg

Like Rods, Customs come in all shapes and sizes and with different to few mods. This one is cool because its different.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/custom_wagon.jpg

Its a bad picture, but this is my favorite custom. I've loved this car since 1953 when it was built. I was 10. There is a ton of work in it. The body, including the hood and decklid are all sectioned. Naturally, all the inner panels had to be sectioned too. IMHO the lines are just beautiful. Built by a guy named Jack Stewart who suppopsedly brought it home to Toledo when he got out of the service. Years ago I heard it was in Akron for restoration. This is the only picture of it I've ever found on the web.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/Polynesian.jpeg

Well, hopefully you know some new terms. That's "Rods and Customs According to Ralph". If you don't like that I used mostly Fords, don't complain. Anyone can post here. :lol: Feel free to expand any category I may have missed.

[FriarTuck]

Great post Ralph, really sorted out the questions posed in the Hot Rod build thread. Now where does the term "Rat Rod" fit in. I'm guessing the very first picture on top fits that catagory.

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Ralph,

Thanks, for a volunteer effort well done! You assembled a great group of excellent photos and insightful descriptions. A lot of members and especially the younger members will refine their knowledge about Hot Rods and customs, I certainly did.

If anyone wants to add to Ralph's descriptions and photos feel free to jump in.

[Boogiemanz1]

How about a `29 track roadster modified? http://www.hotrodhotline.com/classifieds/images/1300184.jpg

[ralph]

John,
The Highboy is in there! The 29 is an A on duece rails.
The Duvall may not be everyones idea of pretty, but it keeps the wind, rain and bugs out of Greg's face. He's 6'5" or so and sticks up above it by about a foot!

[ralph]

How about a `29 track roadster modified? http://www.hotrodhotline.com/classifieds/images/1300184.jpg
Neat car. Don't think I've seen one of those before.

[ralph]

Great post Ralph, really sorted out the questions posed in the Hot Rod build thread. Now where does the term "Rat Rod" fit in. I'm guessing the very first picture on top fits that catagory.

The Rat Rod is now edited in. I had it but forgot it. I parked it next to the resto-rod and that cars owner is p......d. More people looking at the resto-rod than his and the dust from it is getting on his paint. :lol:

The first car pictured I would have to consider a reproduction of an antique street rod.

[ralph]

Hey Ralph, since roadsters are leading the poll, how about a `32? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/archive/TJJ/SnapShots/ReadersRides/greertwo.jpg

Maybe the most desireable of the Ford Roadsters, also the most reproduced............john

Can't believe I missed it. '32's always carried a premium. Heck 32 coupes brought $250 when I was a kid. A's were $100 or less! I'll have to edit one in.
Roadsters were few and far between.

[tdoty]

How about a `29 track roadster modified? http://www.hotrodhotline.com/classifieds/images/1300184.jpg
Neat car. Don't think I've seen one of those before.

Nah, looks too familiar! Ya'll come up with yer own car! :lol:

Ralph, that car is what I'm building with my collection of A parts :). Well, trying to anyway.

I still think there has to be a way to do something ground-breaking yet not totally off the wall - as it relates to our $10k rod project. Copying a '29 or a '32 or a T outright really isn't gonna grab attention. But that's just my opinion.

Rat Rods, now there's a term that'll torque some guys off! Seems there are several splits in that camp now, some claiming to be "traditional hot rodders" ..................... did "traditional hot rodders" worry about patina? Or was that just what happened while waiting for a paint job you knew you couldn't afford 'cuz all your money was being spent hopping up the mill? Some "rat rods" are fakes, some are survivors and some are just outright dangerous contraptions :).

Great thread Ralph!

Tim D.

[Wray Schelin]

Tim wrote:

I still think there has to be a way to do something ground-breaking yet not totally off the wall - as it relates to our $10k rod project. Copying a '29 or a '32 or a T outright really isn't gonna grab attention. But that's just my opinion.

Hi Tim,

I agree, what's the point if the goal is to just copy a design that has been done to death over and over. The whole point of this exercise is to come up with something new. That is easily said but it might not be easy to do. <grin>

The problem is people's perceptions of what a HotRod design looks like. If you stray too far from traditional lines the design soon takes on the look of a sports car or racing car. This is the same problem I faced when I designed my Sport Rod. I tried to design an ultimate Hot Rod and after several hours of shaping and moulding clay everything I did still looked like a 29 to 34 Ford. LOL

I decided that to have something new sports car and racing car design influences had to be allowed. I think the fundamental design impetus of the first Hot Rods made in the 20s 30s and later Post war period was to make a low dollar alternative to the sporting cars that only the wealthy could afford. They did that by making them low
( channeling ) and sporty ( chopping). The raw material was the abundant Fords that could be had for as little as $10.00 to $100.00 depending on the condition.

As Mark Savory ( Superleggera) pointed out earlier in this thread Steve Moal has probably done the best job of tweaking the original Hot Rod open wheel roadster to perfection. I think it will be hard to advance the design without leaving the design parameters behind.

In conclusion I think we have on the table three schools of thought.

One - The hardcore traditionalists:

They will cry foul if the design slips past the traditional Ford body lines. They will be happy to reproduce a Ford design with very minor tweaks.

Two - The super tweakers:

They will allow design changes like Steve Moal has perfected. Designs will be very close copies of his work. Tiny doses of racing and sporting DNA is present in the design.


Three - The major importers of sports car lines and racing car lines.

This group is more daring with their design influences but they might fail in their efforts because the perception will be they crossed the line and no longer have what is percieved to be a HotRod.

[tdoty]

Opinions vary though. The first Steve Moal car I saw, I thought it looked cool. Since then, there have been several rods that use the "Moal body". May as well be fiberglass if you're gonna do it over and over. Not knocking Moal's work at all, I'm just not a big fan of the design any more - the execution is still killer.

I'm not looking to go that far out on a limb, Wray. I've never been much of a fan of vintage sports cars myself. I would like to see something that breaks out of the '23-'34 mold though .................. and a full fendered '37 3 window just isn't different enough for me. If I didn't already have a nearly stalled A project of my own, I might already be on my way to that '36-'37 Track Roadster ?? I keep pushing :lol: .

Now if, by "sporting cars", you're opening the door to Indy Millers and such, I'm game :). However, keeping the "Ford" DNA makes registration a bit easier ................. or at least passing it off to someone more comfortable with jumping through the hoops :lol:.

Just offering my opinions here ..............surprised someone hasn't told me to "Shut and go work on that A" :D :lol:.

Tim D.

[Bambi]

I don't know who coined that phrase, but it encompases many aspects. The term Econo Rod would be more appropriate. Lookin at any of them, one would find that they used whatever they had on hand, obtain or fabricate themselves for the Least amount of money. In escense a Hot Rod for under $10,000.
Metal fabbin abounds though in many ways crude, some are works of art considering the money involved.
If one starts adding the costs up money goes quik. I see these proposals for fancy cars using donor cars.
Many want the latest style and size of wheels and tires. A person can wind up spending a grand or better for those.
Drivetrains, OK you want a donor Camaro, maybe a Vette cuz its got the engine tranny combo you desire. They ain't givin them away. Its not like your takin an S10 or one of the Front wheel drive vehicles that can be had for Nuthin.
Having built several T Buckets which is probably the simplest of cars to build and have built glass bodies from a mold. Many times its cheaper just to buy the parts. Reason: Buying the materials for one is more expensive than buying materials for several. In many cases you can buy already chromed parts for less than you can make them and yours ain't plated yet. Quality wise you will be hard pressed to match theirs.
Even with Swapmeet shopping, you could build a Econo T for around $7500. It won't have a super paint job, not a lot of chrome, the interior will probably be ala Mexican blanket or a seat out of a mini van. No top, and No Blower motor, not even a "Hot" Crate motor. No super tranny. No tricked out Jag or 9 inch rear and No fancy wheels and tires.
In some parts of the country 9 inch rears are plentiful and in others they are not, some people are good parts traders some are not.
If a group member decides to build somethin on his or her own, that should be their choice. If this is to be a group project, it would be far better to buy an old clunker, even an old 40's or 50's vehicle, grab a second generation Camaro for the suspension and other parts.
Reason: Metalshaping is everything, it shouldn't really matter what the vehicle it is. There would be enough metalshaping for everyone, learning the skills is the same. Even the Computer guys could play, maybe a bit of old hot rod skills, chopping, channeling and sectioning. I think that even Wray would agree anyone and everyone could learn something from makin even one of the old fenders with compound and reverse curves.
So there would be plenty of metal work for everyone.
Camaros of that era are good because one they are plentiful and two the stock car guys still use them and used and new race parts are plentiful and pretty cheap at the Swaps.
Plus if someone was smart in the group, the car could be Raffled off at one of the MetalMeets.

Bambi

[ralph]

In conclusion I think we have on the table three schools of thought.

One - The hardcore traditionalists:

They will cry foul if the design slips past the traditional Ford body lines. They will be happy to reproduce a Ford design with very minor tweaks.

Hot Rodding is a tradition, so Hot rodders are traditionalists first and individualists second. In the later model Rods there is a lot more chance to slip out of the "Ford" design and come up with a full blown custom that carries non traditional lines. That 40 Merc is a good example. If that's the car I think it is, it was built by Barris in the 50's. Even if you want to be a traditionalist, you have your pick of traditions. I posted over 20 pic's just trying tp come up with rough categories and I only stuck with the Ford look! There are a lot of other possibilities! I probably looked at over 1,000 pics. No two were the same, yet all but a few had features I liked. Individual owners strive to keep "the look" of the past while building in hitech suspensions, air conditioning, electronic fuel injection and all the other creature comforts. If they didn't want "the look" they could drive hi-tech sports cars for what some of them cost to build!

Two - The super tweakers:

They will allow design changes like Steve Moal has perfected. Designs will be very close copies of his work. Tiny doses of racing and sporting DNA is present in the design.
I agree. That has always been the nature of the sport. Once a design is accepted, the devil is in the details. A bracket or brace that serves multiple uses and blends into the existing form or a form that incorporates some new feature is what people notice. The best designs leave people wondering what it is that's different. The "rods of the future" seldom leave a lasting impression on the the sport. There were a rash of them in the 60's and 70's, but they are all gone and forgotten.


Three - The major importers of sports car lines and racing car lines.

This group is more daring with their design influences but they might fail in their efforts because the perception will be they crossed the line and no longer have what is percieved to be a HotRod.

Wray, what the intended audience percieves as good design is good design. If you cross the line for that audience, you lose the audience. The audience isn't wrong. They are the customer.

I think there is still a lot of room for individuality in Rodding. It is as much mechanical as it is sheet metal. As a matter of fact most rods aren't being built with metal any more. I for one think that's a shame, but even us traditionalist rodders accept that. Rods are an extension of the owner, but those owners chose what sandbox they wanted to play in.

At least that's the way I see it. :grin:

[Boogiemanz1]

Richard, I don't believe that the idea here is for the group to build one individual car, but to design and produce patterns for the individuals in the group to build their individual cars.............john

[Boogiemanz1]

Richard, you should have all kinds of body and frame designs drawn up.....come on ....give!.............john

[bobadame]

How about a Geo Metro with a turboed Olds Quad 4 engine with a Camaro 5 speed behind it. Rear end would be from a 3 series BMW. Big brakes and sticky tires all around, scratch built suspension and frame.

All of this would be sourced from the local junk yard for cheap and be home built. If that isn't a hot rod then I think we've forgotten something important.

[tdoty]

How about a Geo Metro with a turboed Olds Quad 4 engine with a Camaro 5 speed behind it. Rear end would be from a 3 series BMW. Big brakes and sticky tires all around, scratch built suspension and frame.

All of this would be sourced from the local junk yard for cheap and be home built. If that isn't a hot rod then I think we've forgotten something important.


Great idea for a hot rod - even though that might be a "street machine" :lol:.

The only problem I see with that, as related to our reasons for being here is this: All of the required metalshaping could be done with a torch and a really big hammer :lol: :D

I wanna do something similar .................... I'm on the lookout for another '92-95 Pontiac Grand Prix that I want to convert to rear drive and drop a small block in. Not Pro/Street either, I want a driver :)!

Tim D.

[rookie]

I think we are kind of getting off topic a bit. I could be wrong myself but my read on the project is to come up with a design somewhat BASED on an original design but tweeked toward the modern day but somewhat keeping the original roots. The process is designing a platform and metalshaping a body to meet that platform. Making a specific part meet a specific design. In other words motivating us to get off our butts and do something and yet pushing our boundries at the same time!

Later, Phil


BTW the Metro project sounds like an asskicker! Post pics as you go.

[tdoty]

Phil, I think a lot of people are getting confused as to which thread is which - I know I was when I posted! I mentioned that "it wouldn't be totally scratchbuilt", but that's a different thread :lol:! I edited that part out since this thread is just defining the terms used ie: Hot Rod, Custom, Street Rod, Rat Rod, Street Machine (which I haven't really seen mentioned :)) - spurred on by the Scatchbuilding a Hot Rod thread,but.....................................

[rookie]

Oops.......!

[sollis30]

i like this one

[rookie]

Holy cow! Sharp but you could use the drive shaft as an arm rest!

Phil

[Boogiemanz1]

I'm claustraphobic in a stock height model A coupe.........how many clowns come out of that thing?

[sollis30]

Holy cow! Sharp but you could use the drive shaft as an arm rest!

Phil


i am sure this is what he using

[ralph]

I'm claustraphobic in a stock height model A coupe.........how many clowns come out of that thing?
Nobody gets out John. The car is built around the driver!:lol:
I notice you never see those cars on a long rod run. Fun but not practical.
Part of the dry lakes tradition.

Jacin (Hemirambler) is about 6'3". That's him in the left of this picture. You should have seen him getting out of his buddy Dave's truck.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3204/medium/46Dave_s_truck.jpg

[Ernie Ferrucci]

Hi Ralph

You did an excellent job on your post http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif. A lot of different cars to suit a lot of different tastes. I like the old Fords and flat head engines. One of my favorites is a 1933 coupe with full fenders. But I can appreciate any Rod or Custom that was well done.

Thanks for the post
Ernie F.

[ralph]

Thanks Ernie,

So You probably like this car. Currently resides in Peculiar, Mo.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/calkid.jpg

[tdoty]

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3776/medium/calkid.jpg


Hey that's kinda kewl ..................... have I seen that car somewhere before?

Tim D.

[ralph]

Gee Tim,
I didn't name it because I thought "everybody" knew the California Kid built by Pete Chapouris and Jim Jacobs, the original owners of Pete and Jakes Hot Rod Repair. The car starred in a forgettable movie called the California Kid.

Pete and Jakes and Super Bell axles were bought out and the business and the cars now reside in Peculiar, Mo.

[tdoty]

The car starred in a forgettable movie called the California Kid.


Co-starring Martin Sheen, of course. I just had to say it, because the Kid is only one of the most recognisable (sp?) cars in street rodding history .............. even if it is just a hot rod :lol:.

Tim D.

[FriarTuck]

Hey guys, how much do you think they took out of "California Kid". I'm fixin' to take some out of my 35 5window, and I'm thinking 1 1/2 to 2 inches. I'm looking for suggestions. How much is too much. I looked at some of the "Chop Jobs" above and got a neckache, and a sore back just looking.

Give me some feedback....

[tdoty]

If I remember right (it was an old mag, and I was just a kid at the time) that's a 3" slice. Might have been a wedge, but I don't think so.

Tim D.

[1969robinhood]

I think Tim is correct, it seems to me it was stated 3" in either an old "street Rodder" or "Rod and Custom"...as Tim said I was just a kid then..LOL..hiding in the closet reading dads car magazines at night like they were Playboy or something....:lol:

[ralph]

Rick,
I'm not sure, but 3" sticks in my memory. I hit a ton of sources but none of them said. BTW, your 35 roof has more of a slope and its a bear to chop and keep the lines. My brother and I did a 36 back in the late 50's and almost had a disaster. Get lots of pictures stock and chopped and decide on the look you want. Here is a good spot to shop for info.
carnut pix (http://www.carnut.com/photo/list/ford35.html)

[ralph]

Hey,
3 votes for 3" while I was looking it up. Chances are we are all wrong. :)

[Boogiemanz1]

During business hours call 1.800.334.7240 and I bet they can set us straight on the chop............john

[FriarTuck]

I don't think a 35 could handle a 3" chop. The curves and angles on the 35 are really extreme, and like ralph said, it is a tough one to do. BTW ralph, thanks for the link, lots of thing to look at there. Before I do anything, I am going to post front/sides/back/top pics and get everyones input on how to chop it. That will be after all the repair tinwork is done. I'm a long way out on the chop.

[Boogiemanz1]

If you take Street Rodder, the Delays' did a top chop on a `35 or `36 in a 3 part article in the last year.........john

[ralph]

I don't think a 35 could handle a 3" chop. The curves and angles on the 35 are really extreme, and like ralph said, it is a tough one to do. BTW ralph, thanks for the link, lots of thing to look at there. Before I do anything, I am going to post front/sides/back/top pics and get everyones input on how to chop it. That will be after all the repair tinwork is done. I'm a long way out on the chop.

Sometimes less is more. I've seen several cars that just leave you guessing :confused: Is it chopped or is it stock? Sometimes its a lot more effective to make subtle changes to improve a body line than it is to go radical. I've seen some radical chops on 35 & 36's that looked good and others that just looked like the car was chopped to chop it. That is a tough roofline to maintain styling integrity on. ;-)

[Boogiemanz1]

Great photos Richard, Those are pretty nice lines for a 3" chop..........john

[Tisdelski]

hi rick, i have some pics. of a 36 that has rounded door tops. the chop looks to be about 3-3.5 inches and looks great. i can`t seem to get the pics. to upload. if you want to see them pm with an e-mail address and see if you can post them. also richards chop looks great and 3 inches seems about right.
gary