beginer looking to make a quarter panel patch

[Purf_man]

well I searched around and no one seems to make a quarter panel patch for my car. luckily it is a nice slabside car from the 60's but unfortunatly it is a slabside car from the 60's. now other than beating out dents and dings and installing a floor I have never done any big sheet jobs like this. I have done production welding on tractor parts and some thinner sheet welding with a MIG and barely any with a torch.

now I need to fab a panel to fit this from the bodyline over the wheel opening down on both sides. As a beginer I first thought I could cut the lip form flat stock and weld it on to give the flange but I can also see that twisting and warping like mad when I do it. My current idea is to bend up an "angle iron" from some 20ga and buy a shrinker to work in the curves and the resulting flange on the outer surface could just betrimmed to fit the existing sheet and welded in place with my MIG. Would this be a reasonable route to go for a beginner? Being I only currently have a cheap set of body hammers for pounding dents and a couple dollies I have been weighing the costs of start for either what I would need to tuck and stretch the traditional way with hammers vs doing it with a stretcher/shrinker.

Granted I still want to learn how to tuck the proper way as it seems more useful but just am doubtful of me as a novice being able to pull it off on a cosmetic panel without beating it into submission repeatedly.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/purf_man/DSCF0005.jpg

[tdoty]

Cool project! '64?

I'd probably approach it the hard way, myself. It really shouldn't be that bad to bend the curve (up and down) into the panel and then tip the flange over and hammer and dolly it straight.

Pictures would illustrate this nicer, but, what I'm saying is cut out the panel, then curve it the short way to match the body contour, then tip over the flange instead of making several different pieces. Tipping a flange can be daunting, but Keith Daleen introduced me to a dead simple little tool that just rocks for tipping a flange, even on a curve:

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3410/2691tipper.jpg

Of course, I love low budget tools :) There are more elegant ways of doing it, but this one is just cool to me.

Also, I would match the thickness of the original sheetmetal, it may be a bit thicker than 20 gauge .................. might not :)

Just my 2 cents on how to approach this job with a minimum of tools and warpage from welding. Then again, I haven't posted pics of anything I've done in how long? Also, the Model A project I started back in October really isn't any further along than it was the last time I posted pics ................... I've been doing research, yeah, that's it research :) What does all of this mean to you? That my advice is worth about what you paid for it :) It's just the way I would approach it to start.

HTH,

Tim D.

[Purf_man]

nah it is a 62....swapped in a 200 and a T5 trans and getting a blow through turbo this summer. 4 link rear and custom front in fall/winter (with a rack conversion)


well the rear section is all solid aside from teh lower 1-2" so I was thining of patching the opening in one round and the lower rearward in the next round. some of the inner quarter needs patched too but being non cosmetic and not going for perfect concourse I can just bent and cut on a brake easy enough.


so if I use that tipping tool (I got some 1/2" AL scrape I will prob use for it) do I just work it over a little bit at a time until the whole flange is formed? it seems for at least the upper portions it would work pretty good since I am just stretching metal. but the rear lower corner needs to roll under the car with shrinking but being an inside edge that needs shrunk I could piecut and weld I guess?

fun part is doing this with a 110v gasless mig (all I have access to at school...while there is a nice miller 250x sitting at home) I think I might try tackling this in the coming weeks and if it doesn't work out maybe I can get some help at metalmeet 2005 since it is only an hour away or so

[tdoty]

Here's a thought, make the whole lower panel and cut out the section you need? That way, you not only learn how to make the edge patch, but how to make the whole panel.........and you never know exactly what you'll find until you cut out the bad metal.

Yep, you just work the whole flange over a little at a time, and it will go around corners too. By tipping the curved flange vs. just forming it from an angle section, it should need much less shrinking, making it a bit easier to make. The shrinking on the lower can be cheated on a bit, hammerform it over a dolly or piece of round stock to help with the shrinking. Think small-scale tuck shrinking. Piecutting and welding is an option, but another seam is another place for rust to hide in the future - and seeing as how the car is in Central Illinois, rust is always a consideration :) .

Hey the '62s are cool enough - I just couldn't see enough of the car too tell ................. thought those looked like tailfins though :) Still a neat project.

Another thought, I have about the most overpacked shop of the group here (even though some work in smaller spaces :) ), but I'm only a bit over an hour away ............ if you've got some spare time on a Sunday, I can maybe lend a hand and some tools.

Gasless mig here too, mostly cuz I haven't gotten around to buying a bottle yet ........ got everything else I need. Don't know enough about welding supplies to not feel like an idiot walking into the welding shop to inquire :) .

Again, HTH,

Tim D.

[Boogiemanz1]

Hello (insert name here), welcome to MetalMeet. This is the greatest source for metalworking information in the world. There are forums and a gallery for reading and learning nearly anything you could dream up to do with metal.


That said, here are a few small tips. Don't approach that body with a flux core mig. I know they have to be good for something, but welding sheet metal ain't it.


The one thing about a metal project is, if you can't make it all together, make it in small pieces. Break your patch panel into manageable pieces.

Rather than attacking your car and being unsure of the outcome, get some metal (not galvanized) and use the tools you have and practice. If you hunt throught the forum, you will find a tutorial on flexible shape patterns. These are easy to make if you use the right materials, nearly impossible to make and use if you deviate.

Making a panel with similar curves and bends with the tools you have on hand will tell you how ready you are to make a panel. The second panel you make will be easier than the first, third easier than the second etc.

Now if you decide you aren't ready, keep reading......if you don't understand, ask for help.

If you want the ultimate metalshaping experience, sign up for MM05. We probably won't make you a panel, but we will teach you what you need to know to make one.

There is a regional meet at Keith Daleen's in July (SEE Missouri Rebel Meet) and you can get an early start.


I would look in to a oxy/acet torch setup if I were you

Go for it................john

[Purf_man]

well I plan on being at the MM05 for sure since it is only about and hour and a half from me.

I am competent about my welding skill but the sides of the car have so little crown and are so wide I just fear them warping.

what is so bad about a gasless? I have welded some sheet with my miller but it is kinda too big to get on the thin stuff.

luckily I can order sheet metal through the schools tinshop at their volume discount and get it sheared down into a couple managable hunks. I also have access to a undergrad shop but it only has a shear (foot op) and small brake. I can prob get access to a TIG but I have only tigged a couple times (I used it to fill in my door handle and lock openings)

I have never oxy welded sheet this thin and out of position before.

[tdoty]

To answer some more questions here, gasless (flux core) wire welding tends to warp a lot more than actual MIG welding. I used the gasless wire for shaving door handles and had to do a lot of stretching to get rid of the shrinkage and warpage. I use the Lincoln 250 at work for sheetmetal with good results.

TIG would be good, especially if you have access.I don't have a TIG at home and don't see that happening in the near future. A torch would be very good, and it's actually pretty easy to gas weld sheetmetal that thin. Then again, I don't have a torch at home either. The position might or might not be an issue - jack stands could work wonders :)

As John says about not attacking your car and being unsure of the outcome - I guess I could have been more specific in my advice. Make the flexible shape pattern and work on as large an area as you feel comfortable with, off of the car. Once it fits the pattern, and you're satisfied with the results, then you can start trimming and fitting. I'm a firm believer in doing as much as possible off of the car. Why? How many guys here have done things to a car body, and then felt they could do a much better job the second time, if only they didn't have to cut out the work they just completed? Piecing it together works for a lot of people, but, I feel, the more of the metal is in one piece, the better. Of course, I've been known to bite off more than I can chew more often than not :) Practice on the bench, THEN attach it to the car ............. sheetmetal is cheap, old cars? Well, that varies :)

Even if you make the patch out of small pieces, doing it off the car and using a pattern is way ahead of welding to the car and just making stuff up :)

Tim D.

[Purf_man]

being the car is my daily (although I normally ride during the week) I kinda need to do the cut and install in a weekends time so shaping as much of the panel ahead is my plan. the prob with the tig I have access to is that it is in a student shop/lab that I can't put my car in (only fit it halfway in the bay door) so the tig work kinda needs to get done in a days time. which seems reasonable until you look at the FEET of welds that need to be laid. now my wheel tubs could also use some work (was planning on widening them anyway for my new rims and tires) so would it be better if I could take them out also at the same time to have better access to everything and to make sure I am getting everything welded and patched solidly? my buddy (and soon to be housemate) will let me use his garage for as long as I need pretty much but all he has is the flux machine and mostly mechanics tools.

if there is anyone in the southern IL region that I could visit and get some pointers from let me know!!

[Randy Ferguson]

Hey you (we prefer real names here at MetalMeet. It's more personable)

My shop is always open. Not around much on Sundays, but if you can get away during the week or on a Saturday, you can use my shop and equipment. I'll even give you some guidance. I'm in Robinson, IL. just 6 miles from MM'05 (don't know if I can handle the commute this year. The back yard was so much more convenient!!) Anyway, we're a little further than you estimate, but not too far. About 2-1/2 to 3 hrs. will get you here from SIU.
Come on up!!

[Purf_man]

well I am moving out to herrin in a couple weeks it looks like so will be a little closer. I used to date a girl up in olney and took me about 2 hours from c'dale to get there....I guess I like to buzz the old six with the overdrive.. well maybe once summer classes get out I will have to come up and visit or maybe on a saturday sometime....got a clutch to fix before I can make any real drives right now. so would some "black iron" in some 20 or 18 ga be good to order?

Nick Purfield

[tdoty]

Okay, Randy is closer! For some reason I was reading that as Charleston. SIU clued me into it - might be a bit of a trek to get to my place :) I'm about 3 hours away, Randy is 2hrs 50min according to Expedia :)

Hey Randy, planning any get togethers any time soon? How did that Willys turn out? Any pics? Wish I had a chance to run down that way and do some work with you, but Sunday is the only day I have free - even if the auto business is in the toilet :) .

Tim D.

[Tisdelski]

nick, i hope you realize the opportunity randy just extended and take him up on his most generous offer. some of us would love to get to learn hands on from one of the pro`s on this site. you won`t regret it. gary

[Purf_man]

oh I totally plan on taking up the offer. but right now I need to put in a mew clutch (slips with the wind drag at 50mph) so driving the couple hours up there will not be fun doing 50 on the interstate. I am still friends with my ex up that way so might be crashing there while I attend metal meet. I def wanna start collecting some of the smaller homemade tools soon. but I should prob be able to get up there by the end of july for sure.

[jvo]

Tim, nice tipping tool. Why couldn't you post that one day sooner? My hand still hurts from squeezing my 3" wide seam pliers, from folding 3/8" over on the end of 29 1/2" wide sheet of 18 gauge stainless for my model A gas tank. My new brake wouldn't do the end of the sheet, I had to start it with the seam pliers, then finish the bend with a toe dolly, and slapper. I really had to squeeze the pliers to bend the 18 gauge, my hand muscles can still feel it. I'll be making one of those simple tools the next time I do it. Did you simply run a hacksaw cut across the edge, or a small grinding wheel? John V.O.

[Purf_man]

I would guess you could do both on the same tool. narrow slot for thinner and straighter sections and a wider slot for curves and heavy stock. I would prob just bandsaw the one and use a cutoff wheel for the other.

[tdoty]

I just used a thin 3" cutoff wheel and cleaned up all of the edges really smooth. By the way John, I first posted that back in November :) Probably wasn't relevant to what you were doing at the time :) .

Anyway, you'll probably need to do some test pieces to make sure all of the burrs are cleaned up, a small burr seems to leave some nasty marks on the metal. As far as different sized slots, I haven't really seen the need yet - it works as well on 18 gauge as it does on 20 or on .063 alum. Also, since you tip the flange a little at a time, a loose fit isn't a problem.

I owe a big thanks to Keith for loaning me his little tipper at MM04 - I just adapted the idea to what I had laying around :) . It's helped me a time or 2!

Tim D.

[CCWKen]

Sherman International Auto Body Supply used to sell the Qtr. patch panels for 61-63 Fords about five years ago. I know because I bought the front and rear sets. I don't have the address or catalog here but you might try a Google on them.

Just a thought.

[Purf_man]

I have looked into them already. they only sell the full size cars panels (IE galaxy)

on the topic of welding again my torch at home is kinda worn out (30 years old or so) while it works fine for cutting and general heating of stuff it is a little too sloppy for welding (play in knobs changes mixture) so would a welding supplier be able to give me a "kit" to overhaul my torch? BTW it is a victor. also I have heard some talk over on hamb about henrob torches and they look like they are geared more for precise welding and lighter duty work such as I am doing. would this be a wise investment?

[tdoty]

I'd vote yes on the Henrob ................. but I still don't have one myself.

Funny thing is, they may seem to be geared toward precise work, but they slice 1" plate nicely too. If you order from MetalMeet member Jim Spradley, I think he gives a discount to MM members.

I would think it wouldn't be a big deal to overhaul a torch, but can't say for sure.

Tim D.

[Gene_Olson]

On the herob,
Look around. people either love them or hate them.
You may find somebody in the latter camp that will give you a real good deal on one they don't use.

G.

[CCWKen]

Ah yes, the Henrob. Nice torch but if you do a lot of welding or cutting with it, buy or make the sheild. It gets mighty hot on the hand after a while.

Looseness in the knobs is usually the packing. Try to give the packing nut a half turn or replace the packing. If the valve stems (threaded portion) are worn, you can get new valves.

[Purf_man]

well the knobs push in and out on it. real pain...get it set and start welding/cutting and bump the knob and it will kick in or out and mess up your settings.

[tdoty]

Have you tried tightening the packing nuts? Sounds like a likely suspect to me :)

Tim D.

[Purf_man]

well I was home for the holiday weekend so I dragged out the old torch. my memory was wrong and it is not a victor but an airgas body. tightened up the packing nuts and everything is much tighter now. seems there is anothe rissue now. the acet regulator keeps "hickuping" and will cut the fuel flow at random for a split second....but long enough to loose the flame which sucks. This rig is 30+ years old so maybe it is time to replace the regulators on it.

and on another thought could that tucking bar be made from say oak with a 1/4" or so bolt at the base of the slit to prevent spliting? just asking as I don't have alot of 1/2" bare stock around (more like none) but could scrounge up some oak pretty easy. I would also think that the oak would be easier on the finish of the formed lip?

and yet another thought.....are there any good "projects" that can be used as a learning tool? IE making a bowl, flower, fender to a set of instructions? I have looked at a couple of sheetmetal books at the local barnes and noble but they only had two books form the same guy (not covel) but they seemed to just be more along the lines of pictoral timelines with comments of a certain job. Does someone have a book with "lessons" in it to follow? or am I better off just going over to randy's and MM05?

[tdoty]

and on another thought could that tucking bar be made from say oak with a 1/4" or so bolt at the base of the slit to prevent spliting? just asking as I don't have alot of 1/2" bare stock around (more like none) but could scrounge up some oak pretty easy. I would also think that the oak would be easier on the finish of the formed lip?

Don't know if wood would handle the stress there. Here's a hint though, that same tipping tool can be made from a bolt :) . Go to the hardware store and grab a 3/4-10 bolt, cut the head off and cut the groove in the shank end. Grind in the angle and try it out. Square is better, for me, but round will work :) .

and yet another thought.....are there any good "projects" that can be used as a learning tool? IE making a bowl, flower, fender to a set of instructions? I have looked at a couple of sheetmetal books at the local barnes and noble but they only had two books form the same guy (not covel) but they seemed to just be more along the lines of pictoral timelines with comments of a certain job. Does someone have a book with "lessons" in it to follow? or am I better off just going over to randy's and MM05?

Ummmmm, both :) . The Remus books are okay (well, the one I have is ......and, no, I can't remember which one), but you actually have to read them, the picture stories are only part of the story. The Fournier books are pretty darn good too, but neither Remus or Fournier's book will actually teach you to shape metal, offer a hand when needed or show you what you did wrong. A Metalmeet event provides that and much more!

For projects, yep, bowls are good.

The flowers are a blast, though I don't think you'll learn alot about shaping from making them. You can learn bits and pieces, but the form is random (to imitate nature) so the structure is much looser. Wanna learn to make flowers? Grab some metal and a plastic, silk or cloth flower from Wal-Mart, take it apart to use as a pattern, and try to duplicate the pattern. It's really a lot of fun! Hint: Needle nose pliers are a big help (thanks Randy!).

Fenders made to fit a specific application are good too. One thing I've done is take pieces from my car (usually interior stuff that's easily removed), make flexible shape patterns of them, and duplicate them in aluminum or steel. I did a very nice steering column cover for my Monte Carlo - and then forgot to check the regulator on my p-hammer ....................... pretty effectively destroyed hours of work in a matter of seconds!


Just about anything that involves beating on metal with a result in mind, that'd be a good project to build skils with.

Just my opinion,

Tim D.

[Purf_man]

hmmm....I DO need new wheel tubs....I guess I could learn tucking on those...

so what would I need to tuck the wheel tubs (two bowl halves welded together)? just a tucking fork and a hammer? all I have right now is a cheapy china set of body hammers (think HF style) with a couple dollies, a 2#? "sledgehammer" and I think a ball peen so pretty much I could make a tucking fork and starting with a large disk of sheet work a series of tucks on one side?