Panels for my Model A.......

[tdoty]

Randy, is this the right forum for this? It's easy enough to change if I have to :lol: .

This started out in John Brown's "Who can shape metal" thread. Randy suggested I give some more information and different views of the panel I needed help with - along with a bit of explanation on how I got to where I am - so here goes............................

I'll start with an overview of my project and go from there.

I'm working on a '29 Model A modified/lakester starting with a nice, original cowl and building the rest from scratch. I'm using .063" aluminum for the panels because I have 3 sheets of it. Please excuse the clutter shown in the pics, I'm working in a one car garage that contains about 2 1/2 cars worth of stuff :shock: .

Here are a couple of shots of the rough mock-up:

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691metal_00254-med.jpg
^ From the rear ^.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691metal_00255-med.jpg
^from the side^

The mock up has changed a bit since these photos. The wooden door frame mock up remains, but the 1/4" rod used to represent the outline has changed to 1/2" EMT conduit. Other than some added bracing, not much else has changed.

So, I decided to start working on some panels for this project, thanks to a bit of ribbing from the BoogieMan ( :lol: ). I cut out a piece of aluminum about the size of the left rear corner of the car and started from there.

The first step was bending. Since this corner of the car has a healthy radius, and I don't have a brake anyway :roll: , I used the good old "belly brake". I just propped the sheet up on my beater bag and held one side against my belly while pushing with my hands in the area I wanted the bend.

Holes were then drilled across the top and the panel was Clecoed in place. Once I thought I knew what I needed to do, I did a bit of wheeling one the upper portion (which needs a bit more area than the lower portion - refer to the purple part of the door mock up in my first pic, that's the contour of the panel) and stretching is usually easier than shrinking.

A bit more hammer and wheel work produced a panel that was beginning to take on the contours I wanted (unfortunately, I didn't document my progress here). I used a wooden slapper to turn a flange across the top of the panel to hook it over the framework and work as a guide.

A couple of tucks were put into the bottom and shrunk down, then the panel was lightly wheeled to planish it out a bit.

At this point, any probems I had noticed with the panel just got worse. Fitting it to the framework revealed some possibly serious problems :oops: .

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2893-med.jpg

In the above image, the ruler should be near flush with the panel, or at least parallel to it. It's hard to show in 2D, but the panel continues curving on the horizontal - rather than flattening out to follow the curvature of the body - as well as curving too much in the vertical axis too.

Here is another view, in which you can see that the edge is curling inward:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2891-med.jpg

The problem is not only on the side of the car, but the rear as well. Here is a view of that:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2894-med.jpg

In the above pic, the panel should curve outward instead of inward. I can force it to go that way, but the panel won't hold the shape.

Here is another shot of one of the problem areas on the panel - wish I could get better pics, but with a small garage and freezing rain outside...............well, this is about as good as it gets right now :oops: . If anyone needs additional angles to visualize my problem, let me know what you'd like to see and I'll see what I can do - short of rearranging the entire garage! Anyway, here's the last pic:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2934-med.jpg

In the above shot, the lower right corner of the panel is pointing toward the floor in a compound curve - at most it should go in that direction on a single plane (?).

So, any ideas about how to proceed? MY thoughts are to wheel the outer edges and just behind the edge to even out the metal and also that the flange across the top is not helping at all.

TIA,

Tim D.

[GTmike400]

Awesome project Tim! Keep us updated. And that is one trick state of the art steering wheel.

EDIT. I just noticed the models in the background. Any thing 30's 40's and 50's you want to get rid of? :lol:

[CCWKen]

Man, I've done a couple of these but I'm trying to figure out what "panel" you're making. :? :D

Are you duplicating the original panel format (3-piece rear) or rolling your own?

Do you have the body frame made or are you going to frame from the panels? :(

I'm not an aluminum shaper so this is just a guess. It looks like you're trying to work the panel too much (overall). When I made rear quarters, I bent the turn and worked the bottom of the panels ONLY. I started by shrinking a little at the lower edge then stretching above it. Back and forth until I got the panel to roll under. Other than the joint flanges, the rest of the panel center was left alone. A little rolling in the turn will give a slight bow to the rest of the panel. (The fat look)

[CCWKen]

A couple of the pics came out as "X" when I first looked. I see the frame now. If twas me, I wouldn't use conduit. It flexes too much and hard to get even. (At least for me. :) )

How will you be joining the panels at the rear? Welded closed or spot welded on a flange?

[tdoty]

Ken,

As an electrician, conduit is pretty easy to work with :o . It's braced on top of the door mockup, connected top to bottom in the back, firmly clamped to the cowl in the front and supported by 1" square tube in the corner I'm not working on right now - so it doesn't flex too bad. Once I start getting some panels done, I'll be making the inner framework for the body, most likely from aluminum - I don't think I want a wood frame :roll: .

The body is a "modified" or "lakester" type, think shortened touring, or shortened Tudor with the top cut off, or maybe a T-bucket with an A-cowl.........................How about Ala Kart, only tasteful :?: :twisted: :lol: 8) :?: To see the car I've had in mind for the last 10+ years, take a look at http://www.realhotrods.info .

I'm planning to make the doors look like the Cabriolet (with the forward part of the frame like a closed car, but nothing over top of the window).

This panel is the driver's side rear "quarter". I'm planning a flanged center panel between two of these "quarters". I might give a shot at riveting instead of welding, just to do something different (not pop rivets, that's been done enough :lol: ).

I don't think it matters a lot which metal is being used, the forces are much different, but stretching and shrinking still do about the same thing (maybe more of it on aluminum though). I was trying to get the shape into the panel without a lot of shrinking, more stretching than anything else. I probably did overwork it though.

Mike,

Thanks! Chad Thomas brought the A cowl to MM04 for me, then Uncle Johnny took it home with him until Roger had time to truck it up to my place...................basically I have a lot of people to thank for my having this car to build!

As far as the models, the only '30s stuff I have is A's and Dueces........currently available stuff at that.'40s? I got a '40 Ford and a '41 Willys. Anything I want to get rid of? Unfortunately no. I just moved a couple of months ago, and the stuff I didn't want didn't move with me :oops: . Mostly '70s and up stuff got left though. Still got a large collection though :D .

Tim D.

[Steve Hamilton]

Hi Tim

It looks to me like the edges of the panel have been stretched too much. If you wheeled out to the edge then it stretched ( got too long). If that is the case two solutuions. Shrink the edges or wheel out the middle to expand the panel until the edges pull up tight.

Wheel with higher pressure and more passes in the middle and proggresively lighter pressure and passes as you work to the edge.

Steve Hamilton

[Randy Ferguson]

Tim,

You got it posted in the right spot!!!!!

Did you wheel your panel clear out to the edges???

Please give us more info on where and how you went about wheeling. You can easily do that panel without shrinking.

Again, I want you to have to think about what the panel needs so you learn to read it yourself.

This is a good excersize for everyone. Tim's panel is one that each of us could easily go out in the shop and build to any scale, simply by looking at the picture of the car Tim wants to model his after. Jim Russell did a small scale version of a very complicated door skin about a year ago and his results were excellent. That little excersize taught him a lot too!

[tdoty]

Well, I don't recall wheeling to the edge :lol: . Most of the wheeling was to remove the hammer marks, and a bit of stretching in the "curve" - I'll illustrate in some pics.

First, though, I would like to let everyone know my "wheel" is a joke :oops: . It works, but it's nothing compared to RoboWheel (Randy's "little" wheel), any of Kerry's wheels or any other I used at MM04 for that matter. Imagine a frame that flexes too much to work aluminum well :oops: . Therefore, I generally don't use the wheel for a lot of stretching - I just grab a hammer :lol: .

Okay, back to the topic at hand....................

The wheeled areas are circled here in blue:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2938b-med.jpg
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2894b.jpg

Basically, the main area of the curve around the corner. It was wheeled in both directions, partly because I needed to bring up a couple of low spots in the belly braked bend and level everything out.

I was thinking about this at work tonight and came up with another idea....well, a guess anyway :lol: ......Does the panel need to be run through the wheel to stretch the top and bottom of the panel, instead of the sides? I don't think the edges are stretched, if they got wheeled it was totally by accident.

Hopefully the weather will improve a bit so I can get some overall pics of the panel - hard to get far enough from the panel to take pics in my garage :lol: . Looks like the freezing rain and snow have stopped now - I was getting used to the spring weather we've been having here lately :lol: .

Thanks again!

Tim D.

[Randy Ferguson]

Tim,

What are the hammer marks out toward the edges??????

Your next step should be to straighten out the flanged edge. It's too soon to have it turned. You want the panel 100% shaped before tipping a flange. It takes loads of patience to learn this craft!!

The area you have wheeled is in the correct spot.

The lack of information is killing you more than anything. If you would make a quick wireform buck, you would have more to go by and that would make it easier to read the panel. Remember the wireform buck for the roofline on my Olds??? I built that in about 2 hours, and although it's not absolutely perfect, it's close enough to give me the information I need to shape the panels. The more information you have, the easier it is to shape the panel.

You don't need to wheel the top and bottom of the panel.

Stay within the zone you have marked.

[anders nørgaard]

Randy,

I don't know if it's allright that I post this in this forum, but after all it is about Tim D's panel.

And THANK YOU FOR THE THINKING CHALLENGE :!:

Did a lot of thinking. Went to the basement and made a chip board buck. 8" x 6" x 4" (don't know what scale that is to the "real thing"

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Wood_Buck_rear_left-med.JPG

Next I tried my first flexible pattern :D :!:
WOW these things really tell you what to do and where :!:

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Flexible_Pattern-med.JPG

Found a scrap piece of 0.020" soft alu.

From the flex pattern I could "read" that it was just the corner that had to be worked :shock:
Did a little stretching in an area almost shaped as a heart. The thin sheet limits you on how much you can stretch a small area before it cracks, so I decided to try some tuck shrinking on the upper and lower corner edges. Did that on a small post dolly in my vise, using a small steel hammer.

This is what I ended up with.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Panel_side_view-med.JPG

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Panel_on_Buck_rear_left_view1-med.JPG

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Panel_and_Buck_top_view-med.JPG

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Panel_and_Buck_side_view-med.JPG

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Panel_and_Buck_front_view-med.JPG

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Panel_and_Buck_bottom_view-med.JPG

I didn't do anything about planishing or sandig. I want everbody to be able to see, where I did something on the panel.

Thanks again Randy. I really learned something doing that little piece :D :D :D

If you don't think that my post belongs to this Forum, please let me know and I'll move it to John Boogiemanz's "Metalshaping Challenge" 8) 8) :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anders DK

[Gonejunking]

Hi Anders
I liked your post, and it cleared up a few points for me. My 2c it should stay here, as it go's along with what Tim is trying to do.
Just looking at what Tim is doing, I think he made a mistake by putting the lip on the panel before he got to the shape he wanted.
When I get home tonight, I will try to make the same panel without the flange and see if I can make some more scrap metal!
Tim, keep posting.

[anders nørgaard]

Hi Jeffrey,

Thanks :D

I also read Randy's last post to Tim, about waiting to make the flange, after you form the sheet. ( That was when I was posting mine :lol: :lol:

The flange was also the last shape I put into my "Mini A Quarter Panel"

Anders DK

[CCWKen]

Yea Anders, that's what I'm talking about! :D

Tim, you can't get that lower area in the corner to roll under simply by stretching. You'll end up with a "spare tire" look. :? You'd have to stretch the whole panel and leave the bottom alone to get it under the panel plane. And, you want a slight bow in all the panels. (Not flat) That gives strength to the panels and keeps them from oil canning.

I wouldn't make a single panel until you get the body framing finalized and DONE! Wood or metal. That's going to tell you where your fastening points are going to be and where to put the flanges and leafs. It will work as a skeleton buck too.

The over-radius and looseness in the back is too much metal--Over rolled in the corner. The "too soon" flange is a good point too.

One other note: The A's have a reinforcing strip on both the quarter and the center panel at both joints. This holds the shape of the panels and keeps them from buckling the flange. The strip was spot welded to the inside of the flange. The panels are then bolted together with a "T" molding in between. The T molding covers the seam. The bottom of the panels have a leaf that is bolted to the sub-frame. (Body Frame!)

[Randy Ferguson]

Hi Anders,

As far as I'm concerned, your post needs to stay here, and you are welcome to post it in the 'metalshaping challenge' forum as well.

I'm glad you learned something.

If you had used .040 or thicker material, do you think you would still need to shrink????

If I were building Tim's panel, I would do it 100% in the english wheel. No shrinking required!!

[anders nørgaard]

Hi Randy,

Thanks :D

If you had used .040 or thicker material, do you think you would still need to shrink????

NO. I don't think that would be necessary. I think I would just wheel alot around the corner and then wheel the sides along the lines. Probably alot more in the lower section, where the panel has to 'bend in under the body' :?:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Panel_rear_left_stretching_and_wheeling1-med.JPG

there's a larger pic in my gallery

Anders DK

[tdoty]

Anders, Nice work! Maybe one of these days I'll get it right :lol: !


Randy,

No pics yet, but I took your advice and made up a rudimentary wireform. There's not a lot to it, just 2 more stations (besides the wooden door mock up), but it does give more info. Since I'm still waiting for the welder my girlfriend bought me for Christmas, building a wireform wasn't going to happen. Then I had an idea, and went with it. I just silver soldered the 1/4" rod to the conduit frame :lol: :roll: .

I also cheated a bit, I'd like to learn to make this panel, but found repairing the screw up a bit discouraging. I cut a new piece of aluminum and have it bent to the curve - even had it Clecoed and clamped to the frame - but it has no shape to it yet. I still have the old panel to correct too. Learning how to do it right and how to undo the wrong in one project? Why? Well, I've always said that knowing what NOT to do is as important as knowing what TO do - as well as knowing how to fix it if you do what you you're not supposed to do. Maybe I can learn all 3?

The hammer marks out toward the edge? I honestly don't remember, but I think they came from me trying to force the panel into arrangement. They are in the "problem" corners of the panel.

I'll post some more pics soon.

Thanks for the help!

Tim D.

[tdoty]

Okay, here come the pics!

I'll start off with a scary one - that's me using the "belly brake". Made that beater bag the other night to replace the 2 I sold at MM04 (only had an 8" and 12" bag to work with since then :oops: ):
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2923.jpg

Here's a shot of the new panel clecoed to the framework, along with the notes about what it needs where - so far - not that they're legible, but they are there:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2943.jpg

Here is the panel from a different angle:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2949.jpg
You can see that the panel is larger than it needs to be right now. Should I trim it before shaping, or leave it?

Here is a shot of the wireform from the rear:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2950.jpg

The wireform is simply 1/4" rod silver soldered to the conduit framework. Since I don't have my welder yet, soldering it was about the only way to go. The shape of the wireform "stations" was copied from the door mock up, which was copied from the cowl.

Here's it is from the side.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2954.jpg

The above shot is about as far away as I can get - I was standing in one of my toolboxes while I shot it :lol: :shock: .

Here's a pic of one of my solder joints:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2960.jpg

The next pic is a shot looking down to the bottom of the panel attached to the buck. As expected, it gets loose about 1/2 - 2/3 of the way down the panel.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2973.jpg

Here is a shot near the top of the panel. It was hard to get some of these pics considering the lack of organization and space in my garage.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2974.jpg

Here is another view of the fit at the bottom of the panel:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691100_2975.jpg

There are basically 3 approaches here: shrink the bottom, stretch the top, or a combination of the 2. I'm somewhat opposed to the shrinking idea, that'd be quite a few tucks I think :x . My family and neighbors are pretty tolerant of my late night garage escapades, but that much hammering is likely to attract some attention :wink: . I think stretching will be much quieter 8) .

Randy, a review of my progress thus far?

Tomorrow I'll try fitting the "bad" panel to the buck - with the flange flattened out, of course :lol: .

Thanks again!

Tim D.

[anders nørgaard]

Hi (again) Tim,

Great pics. Tells alot about what you're up against :!: :shock:

You can see that the panel is larger than it needs to be right now. Should I trim it before shaping, or leave it?

Wouldn't do anything about the upper edge, but the excess material in the lower corner will be something that is gonna fight you. I'd cut it of, just leaving an inch or so :!:

Keep up the good work :D

Anders DK

[tvand]

Hi Tim, I'm watching your progress with great interest. I've got a 29 cowl that is longing to be a track roadster similar to what you're working towards. It'll have a Jag motor and 37 Ford hubs and wheel. I like the wide five look. On your question about rimming the panel at Ron Fournier's workshop 2 of his rules are "anything to move the metal" and "don't work more metal than you have to" so the belly brake is OK and trim the panel as you go. Nice project and good luck.
Ted

[Randy Ferguson]

Tim,

Please allow me to give you some guidance before youstart shaping another panel.

The lower edge only 'appears to need a lot of shrinking.

Why does it 'appear' this way, but in fact, not actually be the case???

As for trimming the edges, the general rule is to leave 1" around the perimeter, AFTER factoring in flanges, etc. On your panel, it isn't going to make much of a difference, as there's not that much metal to move. Remember to stay focused only on the area you had circled on the other panel.

Anders model mimics what you are trying to achieve. Look at where he did his shaping.

Before doing anything more to this panel, though, think about my previous question and get back with us on your thoughts.
The answer is simple!!!

[anders nørgaard]

I deleted this post myself. Don't know how to remove it completely :oops:
Anders DK

[Gonejunking]

Hi Tim, Anders, Randy, all.......
When I was making a panel like this, I kept trimming it down as I worked it. Never had more then about 1" - 1.5" excess. It seamed to work better as I trimmed it, less mat'l to move. It was a Lotus 7 that I was working on, not an "A", but they are similar.

Tim, I am surprised that you put so many cleco holes in your panel, have you noticed they moving yet?

On the "7" that I was working, I used the plastic spring clamps and witness lines to hold the panel and aline it to the body.

Just an other of my 2c

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Please give me just 1 reason to leave the excess 3" till after working the panel :?: :shock: Doesn't make sense (to me)
Anders DK

Ooh! Ooh! I know! Call on me! Ooh! :lol: I don't want to get in the way of Randy's lesson because thinking through this is where the education is. Also I really like for people to come up with the answer on their own. I'll remember something I figured out a lot more than when someone just tells me the answer.

I'll just say that leaving the extra won't effect the work to be done. Sure it could be trimmed now but why take the chance of over trimming if it's not a problem 8)

[Randy Ferguson]

Anders,

The extra material IS NOT going to affect the shaping of this panel at all.

If it were a high crown panel, then I would say definitely trim it to within 1" of the finished edge.

Where did you come up with 3"????? Tim never said he had 3" extra material.

How much of a lip along the top is Tim going to want???

He could make it in one piece, or he could tip the edge in 1", and add a 90 degree piece to it to complete the upper edge.
I am assuming the upper edge will create a channel?? Hard to explain. Pictures are better!!!

In any case, the extra material is an absolute non-issue, and he may in fact need it.

[anders nørgaard]

Hi Randy,

I see your point. Tims panel isn't excatly the same shape as the one I made. Mine is a higher crown "rounding in " under the body in the lower corner :oops:

No, Tim didn't say anything about 3". That was just an estimate I did from one of the pics.

I don't know how much lip Tim wants.

You're right, it is hard to explain about the channel, but I know what you mean 8) :D

I'll delete my earlier post, not to confuse anybody.

Anders DK

[Randy Ferguson]

Anders,

No reason to delete the post. You said nothing offensive!!

Your questions were valid and will help with the learning curve for others who read our discussion.

It's OK to disagree with me. I'm only right 99% of the time :lol:
(that's a joke!!! hahahaha)

[anders nørgaard]

Randy,

OK. Thanks.

Well... then you'll just have to do something about that last 1% :wink:

Anders DK

[tdoty]

No progress to report yet, and I don't have the time right now for a long post, but I wanted to thank everyone who has become involved with this thread!

I don't mind admitting when I just don't get it, so I hope others can learn from this as well. If I just wanted Randy to show me how to make this panel, I'd find a way to cart the parts down to Robinson (it's only about 2 1/2 hrs away) and ask him in person. I like hearing other people's views and seeing others get involved :lol: . It's really cool to see people learning from my mistakes - I can definitely show you what NOT to do! Let me know if you ever need my expertise in that area :lol: :roll: .

More later.............................if I get any time before Sunday :? .

Oh yeah, as far as trimming the panel, I think I'm going to sort of split the difference and trim the rear a bit closer. Heck, there's a couple of spots where I hope I have enough metal, maybe stretching it will give me that extra 1/32" I'm gonna need on the top corner :lol: .

Tim D.

[Hupmobile]

Tim,
Do I get the first ride???????

[anders nørgaard]

I don't mind admitting when I just don't get it, so I hope others can learn from this as well. If I just wanted Randy to show me how to make this panel, I'd find a way to cart the parts down to Robinson (it's only about 2 1/2 hrs away) and ask him in person. I like hearing other people's views and seeing others get involved . It's really cool to see people learning from my mistakes - I can definitely show you what NOT to do! Let me know if you ever need my expertise in that area .


Tim,

I feel the same way. If you don't admit that you don't get it, you may never get it :wink:
It's great for all of us to be "let in" on this :D If you just went down to Randy's, you would sure get it, but most of the rest of us wouldn't have a clou of what was going on :shock: :cry:
"Trial and Error" can be a good way of learning... but it often takes to much time (and money)... trust me, I know what I'm talking about on that subject :!: :oops:

Trimming the panel :?: Yeah, I can see that it's a bit "short" in some places, but you sure can stretch out of that problem..... HEY, it's not a problem... it's just an assignment :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anders DK

[tdoty]

Tim,
Do I get the first ride???????

Uhhhh, well, you're on the list Chad :lol: ! There is a certain lady in my life who just can't wait for her chance to ride in it, so i think she'll get first shot 8) . Got to keep the peace, ya know :lol: ?

In case anyone following this is wondering, Mr. Huppmobile is the person I have to thank for having this car to work on!

Randy, I'm thinking that the lower part only looks like it needs to be shrunk because that's the way it sits on the buck right now. I'm thinking the plan is to stretch the areas that are "tight" against the buck right now, instead of shrinking the areas that are "loose". Am I close? Also, as the curve develops, it will move the loose parts forward a bit. The only problem I see is the possibility of blowing the curve at the bottom because of an excess of metal there - but that's mostly technique, right?

I'll try to get somewhere on this over the weekend, but I have to work tomorrow, off Sunday and back to the grind on Monday - kinda weird for the middle of a "slowdown" at work, eh? Lots to do on the weekends and not much time :lol: .

Tim D.

[Randy Ferguson]

Hi Tim,
Yes, you're close!

Also, having the clecos on there is locking it in place and not allowing it to sit relaxed on the buck.

You really need more reinforcement and 'stations' on the buck, but it is better than it was.

Your panel is a perfect candidate for a rubber upper wheel setup in your e-wheel. You could then easily place the crown right where you need it.

Spring clamps will work better than the clecos once you get going, as they will not line up once you stretch the metal.

When you do get ready to shape your panel, please draw on it where you think it needs stretched. Break it up into zones. It should look like an elongated target board.

If I can find the time over the week-end, I'll show you what I mean with pictures.

[CCWKen]

The lower corner "could" be made by simply creating a "bowl" there and wheeling out from that. No shrinking at all. I'm not sure how far you can go with your AL though. Did I catch .040 somewhere? That seems pretty thin to get that much in the under roll. But if your not trying to duplicate the stock look, you might get by. It will look T-ish rather than A-model.

Where's that picture of the example, Tim?

[Randy Ferguson]

Ken,

I mentioned .040 to Anders, in a question regarding the small model he built of Tim's full size panel.

Tim is using .063

[anders nørgaard]

Hi Randy,
Sure you did :D

If you had used .040 or thicker material, do you think you would still need to shrink????

If I were building Tim's panel, I would do it 100% in the english wheel. No shrinking required!!


I answered; No 8)
To your sentence on the english wheel, I thought... Hmmmmmm :idea: Only one way to find out :!: try it :!:

You got me off my butt and down to the basement AGAIN :lol: :lol: :lol:

And here is the result 8)

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Steel_Panel-med.JPG

Well, I hit one of your 99%, in which you are right :wink: :D :lol: :lol: I only used my new SMBVW... ("Scale Model Building Vise Wheel") :shock: 8)

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Scale_Model_Building_Vise_Wheel-med.JPG

The "upper wheel" is a SKF 5200zz bearing 10 mm bore and the "lower anvil" is an inliner roller skate bearing SKF 608zz (ABEC 5) 8 mm bore 8) radiused with my disc sander.

I didn't use Tim's belly brake to form the panel. Wheeling only :!: And I didn't use a hammer until I hammer formed the upper flange over the buck.

I used the flexible pattern from my alu panel test to help me shape the steel panel. WAUW, those things really tells you where the panel needs stretching :D :!:

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Steel_Panel_on_Buck_rear_left-med.JPG

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3465/4433Steel_Panel_on_Buck_front_left-med.JPG

This is my first panel that had to fit a particular shape, that I made on an e-wheel :D I think I can learn to use it if I practice a lot more. For my first try.... it's acceptable :lol: :lol: :lol:

Randy, You're right. It CAN be done, only stretching :D Thanks for this challenge. What'll come up next :?: :lol:

P.S. I forgot to tell, it is 0.040 steel.

Anders DK

[Randy Ferguson]

Anders,
Too many people get worked up over shrinking!!!

The Willys roof panel I just finished was 'almost' entirely stretch formed. Doing it two parts made it easy to get all the shape I needed by stretching only. A slight bit of gathering may have taken place on the outer edges of the rear piece, but that was only what may have been due to spontaneous ruffling that appeared while working it on the beater bag. I don't recall there being much though, so I guess you can say it's MOSTLY stretch formed. The front half was done entirely in the e-wheel, so we know there was no shrinking in that piece.

What's next???? Who knows. We'll just have see where this takes us.

[Randy Ferguson]

Anders,

I failed to compliment you on your accomplishment. You did a great job on that panel. Hopefully others will follow your example.

Thanks.

[anders nørgaard]

Thanks Randy,

Had a lot of fun and learned a lot :D :D

I might build a cyclecar size of Tim's A for my 4 year old son :?: Guess he'll be old enough when I've finished it :oops: :wink:

Anders DK

[tractiondk]

Hi Anders

Nice model shaping. You really could use an e-wheel.
Thanks Randy for your advice - I think that there are more than me learning here on the "side line".
Tim - keep up the good work.

Torsten DK

[tdoty]

To start off, Anders, wow, very impressive. Love the little E-wheel too, it's cute! Yes, I called a tool cute :lol: !

Randy, and others, in no particular order -

The Clecos are just holding the panel in place right now, and, no, it's not very relaxed :lol: . Spring clamps will, of course, work better and will be used. However, since the panel is a bit stressed right now holding that shape (needs a bit more bend in it, but I haven't gotten back to it), I shot a couple of spring clamps across the garage before I decided to Cleco it on for now 8) . There are only about 6 Cleco holes in the panel, and, this is not a new sheet of aluminum, so there are already a few rivet holes from it's previous life as a shelf.

I'm using the aluminum because I have three 4'x8' sheets (well, had, before I started) of it in my garage. My employer wanted me to toss it in the dumpster - I tossed it in the truck instead and figured it would come in handy for practice material. It was scrap to them, but not to me! I'm just entirely too frugal to spend $100+ a sheet for practice material. If it ends up being something good, besides just practice, that much the better!

A bit of background on the project, since I remember the majority of my posts, but I'm sure no one wants to wade through all of them to try and figure out the game plan for this car:

I'm not even attempting to duplicate a stock Model A body, the door curvature is about it :lol: .

http://www.realhotrods.info/indeximages/index_r3_c6.jpg
http://www.realhotrods.info/indeximages/index_r3_c6.jpg
http://www.realhotrods.info
Above is a pic of what I have in mind - if the pics don't work, there are also 2 links to follow, in case you're interested.

While not exactly what I have in mind, it does illustrate the type of car. Again, I am using a closed-car cowl (most likely a Tudor sedan), and instead of cutting it up and adding roadster windshield posts, I'm planning to make Cabriolet style doors with a window frame at the front, but nothing over the window. Current project code name is the "Cabrio-Lakester".

Framing in the body FIRST would require either absolutely nailing the shape I want from the inside or getting it close and forcing the body to conform to that structure. Since I'm not bound by the constraints of authenticity, I'm thinking it'll be better to get the shape I want - THEN force the framework to work within it. By the same token, I was having trouble figuring out where to start the whole project when I decided to build the body first (on the mocked up, wood chassis) to get the interior layout right, and build a chassis around that. The other choice was to scratchbuild a frame with very little information about the bodywork. Buying a chassis wouldn't help - because I would need to cut it up to fit the bodywork, with no bodywork to go by. So, I decided on the current plan of attack. The chassis will have to wait until I get a welder anyway :lol:

Since all I have to work with is a cowl, a hood, some shop junk, some sheet metal and some determination to do this - I figure I'm free to attack it as I see fit :lol:. Might be right, might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time.....................or the last), but it makes sense to me :wink: .

I've got an offer of a grille shell from a MetalMeet member, and another member has offered to loan me a set of roadster doors to help with the fabrication of mine. Basically, if it weren't for MetalMeet, I'd either be building models or getting greasy working on my Monte Carlo - well, no, it's cold outside, so the Monte would be getting ignored just like it is :lol: ................although I do need to look into why the heater isn't working :shock: .

And, I'm getting wayyyyy off track again..............................

The buck is far from perfect, but the panel is actually pretty small, it's around 13" on each side of the curve and I think I cut it to 32". Come to think of it, I didn't even cut it, it's the leftovers from trimming the first panel from the sheet :lol: Anyway, I trimmed it down to about 2" from the trim line before work today. I decided on 2" because I don't want to cut it too close. I'd rather work a bit more metal than have to weld more metal to it to fill the space!

Randy is correct about the top of the panel, it will be turned 90 degrees and a channel built from there, about 1 1/2" or so wide all the way across the back. Just like the inner structure, I'm going to wait till I get a shrinker/stretcher to do that part :lol: . The inner framework will be done in aluminum channel as well (that's the plan anyway - Plan B is wood?).

There will, of course, be another quarter like this on the opposite side of the car, with a simple filler panel between them. At this point I'm thinking I might rivet the panels together, mostly for the look. Oh, and that's aircraft rivets, not pop-rivets :lol: . Can't decide whether to roll a flange on the panels and overlap them or use a channel inside (part of the framework) to rivet to. The channel would give me 2 rows of rivets on each side, instead of 2 rows total - more cool factor 8) ?

Most of this has little to do with the actual making of the panel, but I hope it helps answer a lot of the questions about the car itself and what I'm doing. I'll have more progress to report late tonight or tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks for the help, guidance and encouragement folks!

Tim D.

[tdoty]

Just wanted to let everyone know I didn't give up on this project........................................it was just put on hold for a bit. I was working with my "e-wheel" and decided it just wasn't going to cut it for building the "A" - and got busy building another I have been gathering parts for. It's almost done now, just need to finish up the anvils, adjuster and upper yoke. I'll probably put off painting it and making it perty until spring.

Luckily I shouldn't need air for this part of the project - my compressor locked up tonight! It was a decent little compressor too - quiet and reliable until tonight. Guess I can't expect much from a compressor I picked up at a garage sale 5 years ago for $40, huh. Looks like I'll spend the weekend compressor shopping instead of working on my car though.

Again, just wanted to let the people who were following this know why things suddenly stalled.

Tim D.

[anders nørgaard]

Tim,

Good to hear "The Voice from the Cheap Seats" again :D I'm also working on a whell a little stiffer and bigger than my "Vise Wheel" 8)
What happened to your compressor?

Looking forward to see some new panels on your "A"

Anders DK

[rookie]

Hi Tim. Hey, your out in your garage shaping metal for your project, that's a good thing! Even if life does get in the way sometimes. If your Rodster turns out anything like the pic you submitted it will be really cool! In your minds eye, what do you see for an engine? Since you are building a body without the chassis, just keep everything somewhat square by using "X" measurements from the windshield posts or somewhere similar (IF you haven't already done so!) Keep up the posts, they help all of us.

Happy hammering, Phil Gilmore (rookie)

[roger n cindy]

hello timD. this months issue of street rodder page 110- sweet :D .
it's a glass body but looks like what you want to build ?
roger

[tdoty]

Roger, haven't seen this month's Street Rodder yet, but I'll have to check it out! Like I've said before, the Real Hot Rods kits are pretty popular, so I'm going to have to do something to set my car apart!

Phil, Yup - lots and lots of measurements to keep everything square and symetrical :lol: ! For the engine, well, I have 2 ideas there. I'd like to go with a 2.3l Ford 4-cylinderand a T-5 tranny - but I haven't run across a 2.3 in quite a while. Failing that, I'm going to recruit the 4.3 V-6 that came out of my Monte Carlo - it still runs great and ought to have plenty of pep in a lightweight roadster! I'll back it up with either a TH350 or a modified 700r4 (gonna look into modifying a 4x4 tranny into a shorty 700 :lol: ).

Anders, the pump on my compressor locked up - looks like a rod bearing is on it's way out. I tore into it and got it turning again, but I'm not banking on it lasting forever :lol: . Never had any problems out of it before - so little in fact I only bother with checking the oil about every 6 months. This time there was a lot of water in the oil (it's been changed now), I'm guessing condensation. Our weird weather might have something to do with it - 63 on Wednesday, 14 on Friday (those are the actual highs). Might have something to do with the condensation in the pump?

Anyway, I tore it all down and got the bottom end "unstuck", lubed it all up and put it back together for now. Still sounds like a rod's knocking though. I have no idea who made this compressor (or for what purpose, it's not exactly a "normal" air compressor :lol: ), and, therefore, no idea where to get parts for it. I'll come up with something :lol:

Here's a little PhotoChop job I did to illustrate what I have in mind - except maybe the color :lol: .
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691cabriolakester1b-med.jpg

Tim D.

[anders nørgaard]

Hi Tim,

Well, sounds like a new compressor in the near future :cry:

Yesterday (while this site was down) I browsed the net to check out, what else interresting might show up :!: :?:

Stumbled over this one. Might be of interest for you, as I know, you don't have any chassisframe (yet). Here's a link for inspiration 8)

http://www.progressiveautomotive.com/Chassis.htm

(I could use it to make a Midget version for my 2 boys 8) :lol: :lol: )

Anders DK

[r.w.dewar]

The car in the article is a real hot rods kit. Bob.

[Gonejunking]

Hi Tim
To bad you live so far from me, I have 2 extra compressors, I'd give you one! When I mentioned using spring clamps, I was also thinking of those clamps that use the squeeze grips. They would hold up to the springback.

Anders:
I also have a 4 yo boy, who has now claimed my cyclekart as his!
Look out, if you start now, you will be building him some type of car, every year!

[anders nørgaard]

The car in the article is a real hot rods kit. Bob.

Bob,

I'm not sure if that post was addressed to me :?:

I think I might be able to scale the frame down to fit a cyclecar 8)

Jeffrey,

I know I have to look out on that one :lol: :lol:

But that way SWMBO will let "her boys" go to the shop and make noise (and alot of fun) 8) :D :D

Anders DK

[tdoty]

The car in the article is a real hot rods kit. Bob.

Bob,

I'm not sure if that post was addressed to me :?:

I think I might be able to scale the frame down to fit a cyclecar 8)


Anders, I'm thinkin' that one was aimed to me. The Real Hot Rods kits have become quite popular, and make great looking street rods! I've had the "lakester" idea in mind for several years, and now I have to work even harder, because Real Hot Rods is making a 'glass version of the car I wanted to build :( . Luckily, not everyone builds the kits the same, might be able to get some more ideas :lol: ! Okay, okay, I've got enough ideas - what I need to get is some work done on mine :shock: !

Jeffrey, wish I was closer, I'd drop by and take you up on that offer! The spring clamps work okay, now that the panel fits the curve. The "ratchet clamps" that I have are crap, and don't seem to want to hold the panel on the buck very well. They'll clamp the crap out of some 2x4s, but don't seem to be working for this :lol: . Maybe I ought to break down and buy some decent ones? Hey, Wally World has a bag of plastic spring clamps for $4.44, and they're doin' the job :wink: . Honestly, I bought the Clecos, and hadn't had a chance to really use them yet :oops: .

UPDATE TIME:

Got the ewheel put together and in the garage last night! Works tons better than the old little one. Still only a 20" throat (was going to be a bit bigger, but decided to go with a lower adjuster vs a top adjuster - I'm short, okay?), but mucho stiffer than the 18" throat wheel with a 1 1/2" square tube frame :oops: . Still using my 4 1/2" upper wheel though - the 6" caster I was going to use is WAY out of round :roll: . I'll either true it up or buy an actual upper one of these days, but the little one works fine for now.

Anyway, I'll be ready to dig back into working on the panels very shortly - I'll get some pics marked up for Randy and we'll see what we can learn here!

Tim D.

[r.w.dewar]

Just to clarify my post. Roger pointed out the car in Street Rodder, Tim had not seen it. In case anyone else had not seen it I stated it is a real hot rods kit. Which, is the same kit Tim posted a picture of previously. My post was the Readers Digest version of what I just stated. Bob.

[tdoty]

Okay, the new wheel is done enough to use, and works quite well, so, back to the task at hand - learning to use it!

Randy proposed that I think about how the metal would move while wheeling it, and to mark up some photos of where I think it should be marked. So, I marked up a pic last night:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691newmarks1.jpg

The yellow "circle" shows what I think CCWKen was saying about making the lower section into a bowl shape to fit the buck.

The blue marks show what I thought Randy was saying about an elongated "target". They aren't that much different, one's just wider.

The red shows my original thought on this, more of a U or V than an elongated anything.

While waiting to get time to post this, and finding something to do to keep busy and not screwing up the new panel I started, I straightened out the flange on my first panel, and tested the new wheel on it.

In the process of practicing, I sort of changed my mind on how I think I should approach this piece (oh yeah, note the spring clamps too :lol: ):
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691oldmarks2.jpg

The red and blue circles represent 2 slightly different approaches to this, though I'm not sure which way to go. I've concentrated my practice wheeling to the area inside the red circle, with very little pressure. Okay, so I did "wash over" the whole panel to even out the ugly stuff I put into it before :oops: .

The green line shows where the panel really needs to start curving under. The next shot shows how the panel fits the buck in the area below that green line:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691old-onbuck1.jpg

It fits a bit better than previous attempts - closer at the bottom and pretty darn close from the top down to that green line!

So, Randy, am I in the ballpark? Or am I waiting in the hot dog line?

Thanks,

Tim D.

[Hupmobile]

Tim,
You are definately in the ball park BECAUSE you are at least working on something. I am standing in the hotdog line because I don't have any projects under way. While I am here do you mustard and relish?

[anders nørgaard]

Tim,

The red line on the lower pic is about what I did to my "Midget Model A Panel" 8) :D

Anders DK

[gravy]

Hey Chad,

If you need a project to work on, stop by we have plenty. Doesn't the wife need some new louver inserts for the kitchen cabinets?


Johnny

[Hupmobile]

Uncle Johnny,
It's not that I don't have any projects, it's the fact that I am not our their working on them. Hope to make it out and get some work done on the Hupmobile engine tomorrow.

[tdoty]

Going to try this again! I typed this post out Monday night, and got to preview it - the site was down by the time I hit Submit!

Also, what is this thing with having to sign into the forum and the gallery seperately? I always get logged out of one when I log into the other. Makes posts with pics a pain. Happens on 3 different computers - 98, NT and XP, so I don't think it's a "system thing".

Anyway................................

Many thanks to Anders for the guidance here. Glad to know I was headed in the right direction :lol:

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691panel11.jpg
And here's the panel now. There are only a couple of low spots and the panel fits the buck well, which leads me to believe I have the shape right. How do I make the panel maintain it's arrangement without having to use 6 clamps though?

(I don't have any more pics, but I'm getting that worked out too - I'm down to needing 4 clamps, but I think I stretched one area in the process :oops: .)

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691panel3.jpg
This shot shows the fit of the panel about 2/3rds the way down the rear .

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691panel5.jpg
This is the top of the door jamb area. Fit here is better than ever. I also had to shift the metal around a bit to flatten out the area from the door jamb back to the corner - it had a big bulge that my bodged buck didn't show. Had to look at the outside of the panel to see that :lol: .

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691panel6.jpg
And here is about 2/3rds down in the door jamb area. Fit here is nice too.

Wish I could remember everything from my original post :lol: :roll: . Since I can't, I guess this is just a "Where I am Now" post more than anything.

This last pic is a different view of the car, which shows the shape of the rear corner better. It didn't seem to come across very well from the buck or from imagination, but once the metal hit the buck properly, BAM, there it was :lol: !

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691panel21.jpg

So, that's where I am now, and when I have a coherent thought on what to post next, I will. Still shaking from MetalMeet withdrawls :lol: !

Tim D.

[anders nørgaard]

Tim,

Panel's lookin' GOOOOOD :!:

So, that's where I am now, and when I have a coherent thought on what to post next, I will. Still shaking from MetalMeet withdrawls !



Yeah, we all have to try to get back into "one piece" after these last 3 days shocking experience :shock:

Well, after all it gave me a little time in the shop. Almost done with an electrical P-hammer/Shopdog/pullmax..... thing :lol: Just need to get the motor on and make some dies 8)

Anders DK

[Randy Ferguson]

Hi Tim,
Looking great man!!!

Remember the rubber wheels on Wray and Kerry's e-wheels during MetalMeet???? Those are for getting the panel in proper arrangement.

Once you get that one right on, you can make a flexible shape pattern and the other side will be easy.

I was going to comment on your drawing the other night, but the site went down before I got to it. I guess you know now that concentrating on the blue area with a washout over the entire panel got you where you needed to be??!!! You had to work a little lower than your blue circle too, right??? Basically clear to the bottom of the panel, or at least beyond the green line???

Keep up the good work!!!

See ya next week.

[tdoty]

Randy,

I'm still trying to figure out a rubber wheel setup. My wheel is set up for a 6x3" upper (even though I'm only using a 4 1/2" x 2" wheel right now - different story though :( ) and I haven't been able to find a tire that fits. I tried a urethane wheel, and it's somewhere between steel and rubber :roll: . Gonna check the local farm stores again this weekend - they're stocking up the lawn and garden section already :lol:

The majority of the wheeling ended up being in the red zone, and even that was concentrated in the blue area. Yes, I ended up going almost to the bottom edge of the panel to get the shape worked out. Had to do a bit of wheeling over the upper corners of the panel too - had flat spots outside the circled areas :lol: . Just wheeled them enough to put a bit of curve in there.

So, you know my plan already, eh? Once this panel is done, it's time for a flex pattern to do the other corner. Then the filler between them and the attachment and reinforcements. This toolitis sucks though - I need to buy a shrinker before I get to the reinforcements :lol: . I'll probably need the shrinker for the door jambs and door frames too.

See ya next week Randy! I'll probably have a few questions for you :lol: !

Tim D.

[anders nørgaard]

Tim, Randy, all,

4-1/2" x 2" upper..... would it be possible to take a piece of ummm errr... "air inlet hose" from a truck (4-1/2" id) and put that on the upper wheel, to get a rubber surface... or wouldn't 1/4" of rubber be enough :?:

just my 2 c

Anders DK

[tdoty]

Anders, I'll check into that too. I've tossed around several ideas - including making a 6" upper using another 4 1/2" caster as a hub and pouring a 40a durometer urethane wheel. That'd give me 3/4" of fairly soft rubber, but I wonder if it'll be flexible enough? I need to pour some urethane bead roller wheels anyway....................so...................may be?

I also found an 8x2" caster with a pneumatic tire that might fit the upper yoke - but it'd take some modification too. I know Kerry mentioned that a treaded tire works too, but this one's a knobby! Might have to spend some time grinding the knobs off?

If I used 1/4" thick rubber, it would have to be some fairly soft stuff, I think.

Gonna see what's available in the lawn and garden section locally before I start buying stuff just to experiment. 4" hose isn't something I come across every day :lol: , and, if I did, it'd probably be too stiff to be of use as a rubber wheel since I work with high-pressure hydraulics :wink: .

Tim D.

[Hupmobile]

Go to your nearest Truck Pro or other truck part dealer. They used to sell straight radiator hose by the foot, and if you only need 3 or 4" they may have that as scrap. If our shop has any I will bring you a piece next weekend.

[Randy Ferguson]

In some cases the hard rubber wheels work better. I'll try to find a picture of Wray's upper "soft" wheels when I get more time. You may find them in his gallery. He uses a go cart slick on his big wheel, but used an entire different setup on his smaller one. Works better than the pnuematic tire in my opinion.

[anders nørgaard]

Randy,

What is the actual purpose of using a rubber wheel? Is it to apply pressure "beyond" the contact area of the anvil or is it to support the panel?

Anders DK

[jlrussell4]

Hello Anders,

The rubber upper wheel is used with a full radius lower anvil to form a radius in a metal panel. No stretching, just bending like large radius die in a brake.

Jim

[anders nørgaard]

Thanks Jim

Anders DK

[Randy Ferguson]

And there's absolutely nothing better for making tapered bends.

I use mine pretty well daily. I'd be lost without it!!!

Here's a picture of one of Wray's rubber wheels I was talking about earlier. He has something like 4 of these, ranging from almost flat to the one pictured. He uses different lower anvils with these, depending on how much radius is needed in the panel.
The hard rubber wheels offer more control than the pneumatic tire. Each one has it's place though, so for a fully outfitted shop, both should be considered a priority item.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3123/9MetalMeet03_326-med.jpg

Here it is in use.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3123/9MetalMeet03_319-med.jpg

And here you have a finished piece. GREAT DAY!!!

Look on the table and you'll see two of the rubbber wheels next to the panel. Wray made this part during a demo of the usefullness of the rubber wheel set-up during MM'03.



http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3123/9MetalMeet03_320-med.jpg

[anders nørgaard]

Thanks again Randy,

Great pics and the guys looks like they're having fun :D

I have a friend working in a top-capping factory 8) Would the rubber for a truck tire do for an upper? Cause if it would I'm sure I can make some steel hubs with bearings and talk my friend into "baking" some rubber on to it 8)

Anders DK

[Randy Ferguson]

Should work just fine, Anders.

[anders nørgaard]

Thanks Randy,

Yet another new upcoming project :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anders DK

[sleepy]

HI GUYS
I use a truck innertube,(1/8"thick maybe) cut a slice out a little wider than your wheel. You will have to remove it from the yolk
but once it's on there but not needed just fold it inside-out and block it up. Now it's always ready when needed just pull it back on the wheel.
I would go take a picture but I'm iced out of the shop




Brian

[tdoty]

Thanks guys, I'll look into some of those!

Wray's rubber wheels look like pallet jack wheels - gonna have to talk friendly with the forklift repair guy :lol: . Might be able to find those.

I'll check some of the other sources too. Chad, you know how much I lke freebies! That'd be great if you had some scraps :lol: !

Thanks again,

Tim D.

[tdoty]

Okay, since I'm admitting mistakes, I'll admit my buck is very wrong - but just at the bottom. For some reason I'm trying to make roadster doors - which look only slightly similar to closed car doors :oops: . Should be able to save the panel I've already worked on, but I have to redo the buck and my door jamb patterns - oops! Well, this is a "learn as you go" type of thing :lol: .


Anyway, what led me to that realization? Umm, well, I wanted to get a start on a door, and realized I somehow totally blew the shape of the cowl bottom on my patterns. Why is that a problem? I'm not sure how to approach the doors now.

The cowl curves smoothly into nothing at the bottom (I was thinking of the beads at the bottom of a roadster door :oops: ). So, any ideas on how to make the bottom edge of the door? I am clueless (the fact that I've had 2 1/2 hours of sleep in the last 48+ isn't helping me either :? ).

Here's a shot of the bottom of the cowl:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691door_bottom4.jpg

And here's a shot from a bit further away to show the location better:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691door_bottom3.jpg

Here is the NEW pattern I made up to match the shape of the cowl - took my time and did it "right" this time too..............measure a billion times and trim a hair at a time..........test fit...............mark..............repeat repeatedly..................and trim a hair more :lol: .
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691door_bottom1.jpg

Now, the problem here is most likely with how I thought I would make the door. I planned to make the door frame and then skin it by folding over the edges, locking the skin to the frame. Well........................here's the problem:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691door_bottom2.jpg

The 3 layers of metal don't meet in a point like the bottom of the cowl (or the pattern).

So.....................should I:
A:) Make a "rocker panel" to go along the bottom and just do the doors the way I planned?

B:) Weld the bottom of the door skin to the frame, thereby allowing the bottom of the door to be much thinner?

C:) Figure out the right way to do this? The way Ford did it?

D:) Beg for some pics of a real Tudor front door to show me wha I should be doing?

or E:) Just buy some door bottom patch panels and either copy them or add metal to them to make a door?

I've received a number of door building links from MM members, but they all show Model A Roadster doors - and the roadster has a bead at the bottom that the closed cars don't.

HELP!!!! Please? Next week the rebuild of the buck begins.................or as soon as I figure out this problem :lol: .

Part 2 - Tools

I think I figured out a hard rubber wheel for my e-wheel! Cost? About $4.99+ tax! What is it? Well, I have this habit of looking at EVERYTHING as something else.......................soooooooooooooooooooo.. .........when I spotted a rubber 4 1/2" sewer line connector, the bells went off! Wanna know how dumb I can be? I had 3 steel casters, 2 of which I have been using for upper wheels. 2 rigids and a swivel. Figured I could just slide the rubber over the caster wheel - but only one of those is a 4 1/2" caster (and the bearings are shot), the 2 I've been using are 5" :oops: . Never bothered to measure the others or set them right next to each other - I just assumed they were the same. So, what's a guy to do? Make something else!

I made a 4 1/8" diameter 2" thick hardwood wheel and wrapped it with the rubber sewer connector :lol: :
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_3065-med.jpg

I also whipped up a couple of 3" dia x 2" wide wooden anvils too. Much easier to make on a disc sander than my steel ones :roll: .

I also picked up a pneumatic tire, 8"x2.5" to try for an upper:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_3066.jpg

Wish I could find a replacement tire for that - since the whole caster cost me $28.99! I think I'm going to rebuild my upper yoke and just buy a go kart slick for much less! For someone who is stuck with an upper yoke too narrow for a go kart slick, it might help though. The tread doesn't seem to cause any problems either. At least it's not the knobby I was going to buy (for the same price) and "de-tread" with an angle grinder :lol: .

Thanks for everything so far folks! Hope my brain starts working again real soon!

Tim D.[/img]

[Hupmobile]

Tim,
I have a fair idea but can't put it into words. Soooooo I will try and explain or show you on Saturday ( assume you will be at Randy's)

Does anybody have any connecting rod bolts??? need one out of modern iron to check suitability for my Hupp. If you do and are coming to Randy's I would appreciate seeing one.

[r.w.dewar]

I think your problem stems from the fact that 28/29 doors don't fit flush. They overlap the cowl and quarter panels. http://www.seriouswheels.com/1920-1929/1928-Ford-Model-A-Yellow-unchopped-graphics.htm This may show what I mean. Bob.

[CCWKen]

Man, I guess I don't understand all I see with your panel. :roll:

Are you making the hinge panel? Or the side cowl panel? Or the side board subframe? Or the door?

The hinge panel should be a separate piece of about 16ga. The piece with the sharp point looks like the hinge panel. It should have flanges all the way around. The flanges at the bottom get turned to the back and welded at the subframe. The side flanges are turned 90 degrees to the front. The side cowl panel wraps over this hinge panel and is spot welded at the over-wrap.

The door frame is usually one piece but you can fab a frame from multiple pieces. The door frame also has a flange that accepts the door skin. The flare for this flange and the flange itself make up the lower point looking from edge.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/CCWKen/Loads/ModelA-Door.jpg

[r.w.dewar]

I would modify the inner rocker and make flush fitting doors. They would have a cleaner look. Bob.

[doug_walter2002]

Tim, A 28 model a roadster door does not have a bead along the bottom. If I knew how to post a picture I would show you a skin I recently made, I still haven't figured out what I'm going to do for a frame yet. I just borrowed a stock inner frame for fitting purpose.

Doug Walter

[CCWKen]

The door is flush with the outer subframe (rocker). My drawing doesn't do it justice. :D The originals have a weatherstrip on the door at the bottom that seals against the rocker. Doug is right, there's no bead on the door. The "bead" look is from the rocker panel. The lower edge is exposed under the door and looks like a large bead at the bottom.

[tdoty]

Man, I guess I don't understand all I see with your panel. :roll:

Are you making the hinge panel? Or the side cowl panel? Or the side board subframe? Or the door?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/CCWKen/Loads/ModelA-Door.jpg

Ken, I'm making the door. At the bottom of the door in your drawing - there isn't room for 3 layers of metal and still fit flush with the cowl. None of the pictures I've seen of A doors shows the part that is confusing me.

For some reason I was thinking the doors should fit flush. As Bob suggested, I may just end up modifying the "rocker panel" and make the doors fit flush - whether they're 'sposed ta or not! Bob's picture link also shows it clearly - finally a car light enough (but not white) from the right angle to see the fit of the doors. Not the most flattering view of a Model A, guess that's why pics like that are hard to find :lol: .

Chad, if you could explain it, that would be great! What kind of rod bolts are you looking at? I bring along an SBC rod bolt, like those aren't everywhere anyway :lol: . Yup, I'm gonna be at Randy's Friday (sometime) and Saturday.

Thanks for the info guys! Now I just have to sort through it and try to come up with a game plan :roll: . Sheesh, it's always something :lol: ! Could be worse, I could be greasy and confused :lol: .

Thanks again,

Tim D.

[CCWKen]

I think your problem stems from the fact that 28/29 doors don't fit flush. They overlap the cowl and quarter panels. http://www.seriouswheels.com/1920-1929/1928-Ford-Model-A-Yellow-unchopped-graphics.htm This may show what I mean. Bob.

The doors don't overlap the cowl panel, only the quarter. The doors are flush in the front. The Yellow machine is not stock. If you're making the doors from scratch, make the doors fit flush at the back too.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/CCWKen/Autos/31Tudor-3.jpg

[CCWKen]

...there isn't room for 3 layers of metal and still fit flush with the cowl.

By three layers of steel, you mean the door frame and the door skin wrap? The door, except for the skin flange is flat at the front. The outer skin is should be flush with the cowl panel and A-Pillar at the front. The hinge panel is also flat. If there's no room then your door frame isn't made right.

[Oldtin]

Tim, Part of the confusion is from mixing closed car and roadster panels or memories of such tin. :)

The 28-29 roadster bodies had a bead that ran around the forward perimeter of cowl stanchions (A pillars) and the lower edge of the body, the bead under the door is actually the sub-rail, not the door.

28-29 Closed cars didn't have the bead on the cowl stantions or lower body edge.

28-29 Closed trucks didn't have cowl stanchion beads and used the same door as the 26-27 closed car, these doors have a smaller bead around the front, bottom and rear edges of the door.

28-29 doors overlapped the cowl and the quarter regardless if roadster or closed

30-31 doors overlapped at the rear edge only, flush at the front.

28-29 Doty doors will be what ever way tim decides to make them, but as others have said....flush looks cleaner. :lol:
Maybe flush with a flush rocker/sub-rail below the door? :) :?: :D

Les Edmundson

[CCWKen]

THANK YOU Les!

LOL. You just beat me to it. I went back reading all the posts and see where the problem is. :D I see the reflection in my monitor. :roll:

That's part of the problem with building a scratch built. If you're going to pattern after another car, stick with the same car throughout.

[r.w.dewar]

Tim is working on a 28/29 type cowl. It is different than the 30/31. His doors overlap front and rear. That is why he is having difficulty. It would be relatively easy to modify the outer floor rail to allow room to build the doors flush. if he chooses to.
The 29 closed cab pickup was built from 27 T doors and w/s/ hinge pillars mated to a 29 cowl and tank.
Ford made constant changes to the A's during their production run. Early production cars soon had their frame,grill shell, front fenders, hood, firewalls, cowl panels, splash aprons and even rear fenders redesigned early in 28. 30 and 31 s didn't have as many changes, but, did evolve throughout their production. Bob.

[doug_walter2002]

The cowl tim is using is from a closed car so the hinge placement is different. as well as the roadster inner door panel is not as deep as ones from a closed car.

Doug Walter

[Boogiemanz1]

Tim, it's a roadster.....you don't need no stinking doors............. :wink: .................john

[tdoty]

Hey John, I thought about that! Brent (the dude from Tenn-uh-see) suggested making it T-bucket style :lol: . My problem with that is partly that the door area is around 30" tall - my inseam is 30" - bit of a stretch since I think the car is going to end up with a more "traditional stance" than my yellow "goal pic", actually closer to a stock A with a 6" drop axle and 15" wheels (if I don't keep heading towards 17's or 18's). The ideas just keep getting wilder, but I'm trying to stay realistic here :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for the load of info here! I think I'll end up rebuilding the subframe mounts (the rusty looking section behind the arrow):
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3458/2691door_bottom3.jpg

The idea now is to:
A) Make a "modern-style" rocker panel along the bottom - but the problem here is I would prefer to build the doors before the rest of the body............kinda difficult to do this way.

OR

B) Modify the inner structure at the bottom of the cowl to allow the doors to fit flush and follow the curve of the cowl.

Other thoughts and ideas:

Part of the reason for the confusion has been discovered, but there is one thing that wasn't brought into the mix (okay, a few): The large number of 'glass bodies out there that were either modified or just wrong to begin with. Add to that a mix of Roadsters, Coupes and Tudors seen in pics and car shows. Starting this as a winter project might not have been a good idea - where's a guy in the Midwest gonna find a Model A to look at in the winter :lol: :? ? The only guy I knew that owned one passed away and his son sold the car..........................guess I ought to make some more contacts around here, eh? Duh, just happened to think of something, maybe Greg "Cozee" Cozad can hook me up with some of the guys from the local car club :oops: :roll: . All of their meetings and shows that I know of are in the evening, and I work from 2:30-11:00 (until last year or so I was working 7 days a week too - not much free time there :lol: ).

Besides that, I know what I want, just didn't know how "right" it was - thought maybe I missed something somewhere.....................................and, indeed, I did!

The car this project is "patterned after" is a fiberglass body job, and I really dislike working with 'glass!

The challenges on the doors have just begun! Because of the doors (and other issues - like not having receipts for scrap metal), I'm actually thinking of just going to a steel body. It'll be heavier, yes, a bit easier to weld, but less expensive if I have to buy new material and it'll stand up to the folks who likely will want to make sure the car isn't 'glass :roll: . Besides, I plan on actually driving this thing when it's done, so the steel panels will handle a rock bounce better too.

The other side of the coin is that the forming I want to do for parts of the doors will be much more difficult in steel than aluminum. That's where the welding comes in though :lol: , it'll be easier to work the steel in smaller pieces (I think) and weld 'em together versus larger panels in aluminum with a minimum of welding. We'll have to see how that works out and what kind of deal I can find around here on steel! I'm thinking 20 gauge, but, mostly, I'm worried that the local price I can get on 20 is going to be pretty competetive with the cost of 19 gauge from Randy (assuming he as any left). Another problem there, either way, is finding someone willing to haul it for me................don't think it'll fit in the trunk of my Monte - my girlfriend isn't about to let me even think about hauling it in her Roadmaster.........and the sheets would need to be cut up for either of those options. Or, I can bite the bullet and have Frigo ship me a ton of 18 gauge..................but that's a bit heavy for what I'm building, IMHO.

Anyway, thanks again for the info. As always, ideas, comments or suggestions are more than welcome! Won't be on the site, or able to work on the A, until Sunday or maybe even Monday though - got that Regional at Randy's to attend!

Tim D.

[jvo]

Tim, here's my take on it. If you look at my truck pics in my gallery, you will notice there's been lots of cutting and welding and all that sort of stuff. I may even hold the world record for cutting up a piece of junk and re-welding it back together. The door skins may appear rough, and look that way, cause they are. I've been working on this piece of crap for about 5 years now, and its been my education. My suggestion is the same as Bob Dewar's and Ken's. Cut out your rocker so you can make room for the bottom of your doors the way you want them. There are no rules. Its your truck. You make the rules, and I'm sure it will look great when you are done. If I had my e-wheel built, I KNOW I would build new door skins for my doors. I don't want to do that. I wanna drive it some time this decade. They are gonna get some "bo--do". I'm still learning, and I hope noone can see the back cab corner behind the passenger door too good, but its gonna get a whack of bondo on it for the same reason. Do it right the first time, it will save you some time. John V.O.

[jvo]

Just gonna walk out the door to go home for 4 days off. Going directly to a friend's place to start a roof skin for '25 T truck. Bob Dewar, where are you for the next 4 days? (Ol Jer's truck, the yellow finished chassis that's been done for about a dozen years) He wants me to make cuts diagonally on the roof skin, so it will fold over and make crown both ways. If I had my e-wheel done, we could roll one up for him in a couple days. Maybe I should try this grid thing, or maybe I should spend 4 days building an e-wheel frame. (Kerry, you should have been a little pushy when trying to convince me to buy your upper adjuster assembly) Perhaps I should have posted this on the "What have we been working on" forum. Let's see, this weekend I have to tow an S15 home, kid wants me to put a motor in it, also want to work on my model A. I need to clean up the garage also. I'll just bet I'm the only guy with way to much to do, and not enough time, right? Anyway, I'll try to grab the camera, and take some pics, and report back next Tuesday. Wish me luck. ( The reason I'm posting this, is I don't want to make a fool out of myself next Tuesday. I have to get something done over the next 4 days. Need to light a fire under my own behind.) John V.O.

[Boogiemanz1]

Tim you can cut the rocker out and move it back or make the bottom of the door about the height of your floor (top of rocker) and weld the bottom curve to the rocker . This way you can recess your doors and the bottom is just, or nearly, flat............there are a hundred "right" ways on a Hot Rod.........jb

[r.w.dewar]

Throwing out another thought Tim. Roadster doors have a lower belt line than the coupe or sedan bodies. Maybe Brent, Doug or one of the others have a roadster body handy to measure from the top of the door to the bottom of the body. Or you could channel the body over the frame to make it easier to step over. Bob.

[doug_walter2002]

All I have is a 28 roadster cowl, the roadster door i borrowed to copy ways returned tonite ad the quarter panels I'm using for paterns are from a coupe. I have a friend with a 28 roadster pu with a 30/31 rear panel in his shop. I could probably take some pics and measurements tomorrow.

Doug Walter

[anders nørgaard]

Tim,

Check out this site. TONS of Model A pics (and others) for inspiration.

http://www.carnut.com/photo/list/ford29.html

I second the idea of a rocker with the bead. Looks good with the bead and retracting modifying the A-pillar shouldn't be to big a job.

Anders DK

[Oldtin]

Tim, Here is another H.A.M.B. link that might give you some ideas.
roadster builds (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43280)

Some of these are different (:roll:) but the one on the bottom end of page 2 and the begining of page 3 has promise. It also has some good door detail/ideas.

Les Edmundson

[doug_walter2002]

I went out and measure a 28 model A roadster pu this afternoon, the rear quarter panel is 25 inches fron top to bottom. I ran out of the house without my camera, so sorry no pics.

Doug