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BRENT in 10-uh-C
12-11-2004, 11:44 AM
Has anyone ever figured out a way to make a set of thumbnail shrinking dies using a shopbuilt P-Hammer set-up like Tim's pictured below? I think I can figure out everything how to duplicate the dies much like Cary built his, ...but I cannot figure out how to "lock" the unit stationary in the upper hammer area. Any thoughts???


http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691p-hammer2.jpg

Sam Lee
12-11-2004, 11:52 AM
The big question is does the Rivet Gun/Muffler Cutter have
enough power to form and crush even small tucks ?

I suspect many of them won't.

Aside from thet,I would suggest the upper die could have a square head,then a piece bolted to the frame could register against one side of the square,while still allowing it to move up and down.

tdoty
12-11-2004, 12:55 PM
does the Rivet Gun/Muffler Cutter have
enough power to form and crush even small tucks ?


I'd be willing to bet it would. Someone at MM04 told me the air hammer I was using wasn't powerful enough for 18 gauge steel - took me a bit more time to undo the damage I did trying to compensate for supposed "lack of power". Might be a little slower than, say, a Trace-A-Punch, but it should work.

The square die is a great idea. Jerry Conrad suggested the same thing at MM04.

Another choice is to machine the shank to fit a "no-turn chuck" like those from Matco. Or, maybe even start with a no-turn chisel and modify it, the use the no-turn chuck on the gun.

I'm really interested in ideas like this too - cuz it's on my project list :lol: .

Tim D.

anders nørgaard
12-11-2004, 04:07 PM
Hi Guys,

How about this :?:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/513/4433P_Hammer_Shrinking_Dies.jpg

A nut welded to the upper die. A small piece of tube welded to the "motor bracket" (I don't know, what it's called) :oops: A piece of rod threaded in the lower end :!:

Mount the die in the hammer. Insert the rod through the tube and fasten it in the die :idea:

Anders DK

anders nørgaard
12-11-2004, 04:37 PM
Hi again,

Or how about this one for the square dies :?:
Just bolt it to the underside of the upper arm

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/513/4433P_Hammer_Square_Die_Holder.jpg

Anders DK

Boogiemanz1
12-11-2004, 09:02 PM
I dont have CAD capabilities, but what about a small tab welded to the upper die with a spring attached to it. The other end of the spring would attach horizontally to the back of the machine. The tension of the spring should keep it straight as you need very little travel on shrinking dies, and I'm not convinced they would need retaining.

Has anyone tried running them in a planisher?.........john

Boogiemanz1
12-12-2004, 08:56 AM
Here is a photo of the die I described that was sent to me by Anders. He comments that the spring my keep the die from retracting into the hammerhttp://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3459/28Anders_die-thumb.jpg


I don't know if it would or not, if it did the spring could be angled upward maybe?

Tim, you have this type hammer, when you have time, how about tacking something on to a regular die to try this. Mark it with a sharpie to see if it turns. Its just conjecture until someone tries it..........john

tdoty
12-13-2004, 12:50 AM
I'll give some of these ideas a try when I have some time - might be soon.

But, here's another idea - no pics though..............

Why not drill a hole in the shank area of the hammer, and tap it for a set screw, then mill or grind a slot in the upper die's shank? The set screw would ride in the slot, keeping it from turning. That was one plan I came up with.

The other was broaching a slot in the hammer and making a keyed shank upper - sounds like too much work to me :lol: .

I'll give some of these ideas a shakedown - but I can't guarantee it'll be on a thumbnail die, still working out the pickyticulars on those working with Richard K.'s design. Gotta see if I'm a competent enough machinist to make the dies :? !

Tim D.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
12-13-2004, 01:10 AM
Hey All...

To me, I suppose it begs the question them, --Just how much "rotational movement" is allowed with a Shrinking die? Is the theory just to keep it "close" and the two dies will "center" themselves as they travel up and down?

Personally I think the set screw idea would be the way to go if 'some' rotational movement is acceptable with the upper anvil.

tdoty
12-13-2004, 01:40 AM
I think that's a good question - that someone here can hopefully answer!

My take? I think you would want to minimize the rotational movement to keep from marking the panel or work-hardening it. It also depends on how "loose" the dies are with each other. If there is some space for the metal to move without being "trapped" where you don't want it, then a small amount of rotation won't hurt severely :shock: .

I guess a lot of it depends on the dies, but....................who knows for sure? Come one, somebody knows :lol: .

Tim D.

kenklose
12-13-2004, 09:08 AM
Kent White has a set of round shrinking dies for the air planishing hammer. They aren't thumbnail. In fact I'm not sure how they actually work. They aren't held in any particular orientation, they rotate freely. But I've seen them first hand, and they do in fact shrink. I think has to do with the material used in the face of the die.

CCWKen
12-13-2004, 06:32 PM
I've been playing with srinking dies for P-hammer. I got started but haven't finished yet. I'm using the Needle Scaler hammer that has (uses) the square shank dies. I got the dies to make a tuck, capture it and hammer it down. After I worked on the dies to clean them up and polish, they didn't work any longer. I think I opened up the clearance too much. :(

When I get a chance to make another upper die, I'll give it shot. The pics below show the rough upper die and the first trial.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/CCWKen/Tools/P-Hammer/ShrinkDie1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/CCWKen/Tools/P-Hammer/ShrinkDie3.jpg

tdoty
12-13-2004, 06:33 PM
Well, I made a set of thumbnail dies :roll: . Don't know how they'll work in the P-hammer, but they do work using a ball pein hammer :lol: .

I'll offer up more info, and maybe some pics when I get a chance to try them out. My main goal is shrinking aluminum, but I'll see if I can give a go at some steel too - without my neighbors shooting at me :shock: 8) . Gonna test 'em out after work tonight :shock: .

Tim D.

Sam Lee
12-13-2004, 07:47 PM
Why not drill a hole in the shank area of the hammer, and tap it for a set screw.... broaching a slot in the hammer and making a keyed shank upper -

I suspect the parts are much too hard to be easily machined.

jlrussell4
12-13-2004, 08:08 PM
Hey guys,

John "the Tinman" Tuto shrinks with his planishing hammer. No special dies other than the wheel style lower. John's explaination to me at MM04 makes me think it's more in the technique than the tooling.
A few years back someone explained how Kent White wanted the user of his shrinking dies to use them. He seemed to think one could shrink with any planishing hammer if the proper method was used.
Just some food for thought :)

Jim

dauer
12-13-2004, 08:46 PM
Hey;

I too have seen Kent White shrink without thumbnail dies and I have pictures I am going to try to post. of the upper die in action. It was really amazing as I watched him flatten a high crown he had made in a peice of 3003 half hard al. then put the crown back in and flatten it back out without any annealing! I also recieved a flyer from TM Technologies offering a DVD 2 hours long on "Air Hammer Operations" though it's a bit pricy and guaranteed to be a big sales pitch for their plannishing hammer....


Dave

dauer
12-13-2004, 09:49 PM
Well tried to upload the pictures, surprise.... didn't work.

Dave

tdoty
12-13-2004, 11:13 PM
Why not drill a hole in the shank area of the hammer, and tap it for a set screw....

I suspect the parts are much too hard to be easily machined.

I'm doubting that too - but I shall find out! Why? Because my dies work nicely. Rotation of the dies IS an issue though. Banged up my lower die when the upper turned :shock: .

The lower die is made from a 1" Grade 8 bolt shank, with the shank from a 1/4-20 TIGged in place for the "thumbnail". The upper is a flush rivet set I had - a heavy one, almost like a "bumping hammer". The notch was carved out with a die grinder, which explains the nasty nicks!

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_2622.jpg

Here's the first shrink done on a piece of .063" aluminum:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_2624-3.jpg

And, here are the shrinking results on 18 gauge steel:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_2625.jpg

Just to explain the origin of the steel - it's a chunk trimmed from a project I brought home from MM04. 18 gauge from Frigo Design.

So, the results:

1. Yes, an air chisel/muffler gun/ air hammer and likely a riveter are capable of shrinking 18 gauge steel with thumbnail dies.

2. Yes, rotation of the dies is an issue!

3. Thumnail dies aren't that hard to make. Good ones are likely much more difficult than just making ones that work :lol: .

Gonna have to try these on an actual part, not just a piece of metal! Might have to make a new lower first though :oops: .


Other things:

I, for one, would like to hear (read :?: ) more about John Tuto's shrinking method. I think it would be quite interesting. There just wasn't enough week at MM04 to talk to everybody about everything - know what I mean?

Kent White's dies are also interesting - and they're $235. That's $235 I'm not likely to spend for a while - too many other things in line first.

I've crushed hand tucks with my P-hammer before. Setup and air pressure are important, as well as technique. The problem is, it's easy to stretch them back out too!

Just thought I'd share - stay tuned for the next step!

Tim D.

Joebob
12-15-2004, 06:07 AM
All;
Seems to me, thumnail dies can be free floating, they will find thier own centers. I think I saw it on Kents video, when he was forming a bead on a Pulmax. Makes sence. The dies were'nt thumbnail, but similar, & were'nt keyed.

Cheers

mr.c
12-15-2004, 08:16 AM
Tim, from what I see in your photo, you are stretching the metal. See how it "flows" off of the straight edge of the panel. I experienced similar stretching with the first dies that I made for the trace-a-punch. I had to do some tweaking on the dies before they started to shrink the metal.
Someone mentioned floating dies. The upper die in the trace-a-punch would eventually vibrate loose and become free floating. (Generally when I was back at the motel catching some zee's while you guys worked past midnite.) The out of alignment of the dies beat up the upper die with the tip of the lower. Probably marked up someones panel severely. Actually that all worked out good for me in that grinding out the marks after I got home gave me the effect that I had been working for. No marks on aluminum panels. I had tweaked the dies several times at MM trying to sneak up on the right shape. They don't shrink as aggressively but don't mark the panel. I have a suspicion that you can't get aggressive shrink without marking the panel.

tdoty
12-15-2004, 02:27 PM
Carey,

Thanks for the response! Yeah, my lower die has a big ding in it from the upper die rotating :oops:

Yeah, the dies are stretching a bit, but I think a lot of that is setup. I just wanted to try it out. Some of the shrinks actually shrunk a bit better, but were quite ugly :shock: . The ones in the pictures were just the first pass. They shrink, if you move the metal in and out really fast. Too slow and it starts to stretch. Maybe lower air pressure? I'm using 50 psi for aluminum and 80 psi on the steel - might try 30 and 60, or any combo I can think of :lol: .

Another thing I've noticed, for those who say an air hammer won't do this job, is that it's actually thinning the metal where the dies hit. If an air hammer won't hit hard enough to move 18 gauge steel, how's it thinning it out :?: ?

I'm going to keep playing with the dies to get the setup and technique right. I modified my hammer last night to allow a set screw to seat on a flat ground on the upper die shank. The barrel of the gun wasn't that hard :roll: . I tried to make my first set of dies from the hydraulic cylinder shaft material I've been using for regular lower dies, but couldn't even make a mark in the shaft with a center drill or center punch. I used grade 8 bolts for the dies because they drilled a lot easier. the air hammer barrel was just a bit tougher than a grade 8 bolt, but no match for a center drill :lol: .

I'm also thinking about making another P-hammer with about an 8" throat just for shrinking - mostly to avoid having to change my dies :lol: .

Tim D.

Jay Hayes
12-15-2004, 07:58 PM
You can keep the upper and lower thumb nail shrinking dies from rotating by incorporating a technique that blacksmiths frequently use to make spring fullers. A piece of rod or flat bar is bent in a hair pin shape and the ends are attached to the upper and lower dies. This allows the dies to open and close but they can't rotate out of alignment. A piece of rod a couple feet long will make a spring that gives you about a ten inch throat

Jay

[/img]

timf
02-04-2005, 02:48 AM
would machining the bottom die in the form of a shrinking dolly not work.

http://www.eastwood.com/images/us/local/products/detail/p983.jpg

so that the metal is gathered.

Richard K
02-04-2005, 03:44 AM
We at Shopdog have been making thumbnail shrinking dies for 2 years. It is not a simple task. Making a set that shrinks is one thing, making a set that shrinks without marking the metal is a whole different ballgame.

Here are my theories on how power tuck shrink dies work. We will go through the steps as the metal is put into and then retracted from the dies.

Important Point... Think of the shrink die set as two sets of dies in one.
The rear half (away from the operator) "gathers the metal to form a tuck as the metal is push into the dies.
The front half flattens the tuck as the metal is pulled out of the dies.
1. As the metal is fed into the dies it must be "gathered"; not "stretched" over the thumb. The die set must allow the metal to slide into the die from the sides as the thumb forces the metal into a tuck. When using the die you should feel the front corners of the panel being forced downward a bit and pulled into the die from the sides. If the die is pinching the metal as the thumb deforms it ; the tuck is being formed by stretching not gathering.
To test for "gather"
1. Mark the metal with a pair of lines perpendicular to the edge at 3" apart.
2. Feed your metal into the dies about 2". and stop the hammer.
3. Remove the metal and measure the distance between the marks.
4. The measurement must be less than 3" IF the die is "gathering".
If the die is not "gathering" on the way in it cannot shrink.

We will add to this post later tonite for the second part of the operation, flattening the tuck, and then some observations on why the die set marks the metal.

anders nørgaard
02-04-2005, 03:57 AM
Richard,

EXITING tutorial :D

:shock: TO BE CONTINUED... :D

Can't hardly wait :!:

Anders DK

Gene_Olson
02-04-2005, 05:24 AM
You two have been watching too many season finale cliff hangers on tv.

My Guild of Metalsmiths monthly notice says that "Shopdog" is also on the demonstrators list for the Guild Feb meeting in Plymouth.
What with Richard and Don Hammer demonstrating is sounds like we should have a good metalshaping 101 lecture going.
Feb, 9th in Plymouth MN, stop by if you are in the neighborhood.

more on the meeting, time, and a map at:
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2555

G.

Doug98105
02-04-2005, 06:07 AM
Regarding shrinking dies for Pullmax, etc.....

I've noticed with my home made dies there's a fine line, adjustment-wise, between having them shrink or stretch.

If the die clearance adjustment is too tight I get a stretch rather than a shrink. So it appears it's a balance between a wide enough clearance for forming the tuck with as little stretch as possible and having the a small enough clearance to cause shrinkage on pull back of the panel.

My thought is to add an attachment to the Pullmax lower adjusting screw. This would be a pneumatic cylinder actuating a short lever attached to the screw operated by a foot pedal that allowed a slight amount of clearance change on the dies between infeed and outfeed. The adjustment screw pitch is relatively coarse so a 30 degree or so rotation will make quite a difference in die clearance.

The theory is the dies would have a wide clearance on infeed forming the tuck. The wide clearance would assure very little stretch. As the panel is pulled out the operator would hit the foot pedal to close the die clearance so it was right for shrinking.

Any thoughts? Anyone tried this?

Doug

Richard K
02-04-2005, 02:32 PM
I will continue on with my shrink die theory. Many who are successfully making dies have been down this path. Maybe a different path than I have found. These are my observations and I feel I have been making progress in developing a die giving good shrink results with minimal marking.

As I mentioned previously, the rear half of the die "gathers" The metal on the way in. How does this happen and what characteristics does the die need?

1. The die needs to have clearance in this part that will allow the metal to be pulled into the die from the sides as the thumbnail forces it upward. From the base of the thumb (intersection with the die face near center of die) the top face of the die needs to relieved towards the rear of the die. As the thumb gets taller the clearance to its left and right needs to increase. I try to give this area a 4-5 degree slope from the center to rear and toward right and left. Do not get carried away as the rear corners of the die need to support the metal as the thumb provides an opposing force.
2. The metal seems to rise above the actual top of the thumb as if it is being forced by the intersection of the top die groove and the sides of the thumb. therefore a scuff type mark will be made on the underside of the metal at the base of the thumb. Three things I have found help to alleviate the marking.
A. A polished radius between the thumb and the top surface of the die. To do this when a thumb is created by burying a rod in the base is difficult. I have TIG welded filler in the area and ground it smooth. Alternative is to mill the die and thumb one piece.
B. The shape of the top of the thumb. A slight arch shape seems to help flow here. Start with a 17 degree angle and almost flatten the thumb top at the rear of the die. Round off the rear end of the thumb.
C. The shape of the inside of the groove. As I mentioned in "A" the metal rises up in the groove. Make it match the thumb plus metal thickness plus clearance in front and rear. In the mid portion of the groove open it up like the inside of a teaspoon.

All surfaces of the die need to meet in VERY Smooth transitions.. Polish, Polish, Polish. The die surfaces need to have a mirror finish to work well and not mark.

Next we will discuss the front half of the die that crushes the tuck

As doug9815 has found stretch dies are easy to make.

anders nørgaard
02-04-2005, 04:17 PM
Hi Richard,

This is getting better and better :D :!:

My dies marks the work piece on the top side :( makes 2 scratches in the area right next to the thumb. The dies are made from bolts and maybe it's the narrow area (A and B) that causes the metal to be stretched/marked.

Do you think it would get better if I added surface in these areas :?:

Thanks for all your good information :D Looking forward to " The Next Episode"

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3282/4433Female_Die-med.jpg

Anders DK

jlrussell4
02-04-2005, 04:33 PM
Hi (insert name),

would machining the bottom die in the form of a shrinking dolly not work.

so that the metal is gathered.

All I have ever been able to do with one of those dollys or the serrated hammer is to mark the daylights :evil: out of a panel. If you are using bondo they give a good "tooth" for the bondo to adhere to :lol: .

Jim

anders nørgaard
02-04-2005, 04:37 PM
Jim,

I second that entirely :!:

Anders DK

Kerry Pinkerton
02-07-2005, 09:10 AM
Hey;

I too have seen Kent White shrink without thumbnail dies and I have pictures I am going to try to post. of the upper die in action. It was really amazing as I watched him flatten a high crown he had made in a peice of 3003 half hard al. then put the crown back in and flatten it back out without any annealing! I also recieved a flyer from TM Technologies offering a DVD 2 hours long on "Air Hammer Operations" though it's a bit pricy and guaranteed to be a big sales pitch for their plannishing hammer....


Dave


Several years back when Kent first introduced his shrinking dies there was a big discussion on the metalshapers site about them. The upper die is flat and the lower is domed. The metal is something secret but it's very light and seems to be 'grippy'. When asked about how they worked, Kent was being typically Kent with responses like "..if you are trained, they work great..." which proceeded to get him beat up by several folks, one of whom had purchased the dies and was unable to make them shrink. Howard Booster then posted an album that showed them in action. I can't find Howards original post but this link is to a similar one that shows the process.

http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=99801 13544105

What you will notice is that it is at LEAST as much process as tool. In email conversations with Howard, he agreed that the process was key but also stated that Kent's dies seemed to make the shrinking go considerably faster, presumably from they way they held the metal.

As an experiment, I tried the process on my big air hammer. (IVAN THE RED, a chipping hammer power source) I was easily able to shrink by following the process. That is, pull down on the metal to form a tuck and crush the tuck, repeat. No earth shattering magic here! It did work even better when I roughed up the dies to better hold the metal

Later I tried the same process on Dutch's CP hammer and was unable to get it to work. I don't think the CP hammer hits hard enough or has enough stroke to allow you to get on top of the tuck.

dauer
02-07-2005, 10:53 AM
Thanks Kerry;

I had been standing behind Kent when he did the demonstration so all I could see was the metal changing shape without being able to see the details of the process. The lower anvil he uses in the link you posted is different then what he used at Oshkosh but looks like it works just as well. Mr. White is a very talented "individual" but it is hard to believe the way he sometimes treats his potential customers in his demonstrations. I have a few close up pictures of the dies that I need to take the time to learn how to post and get them on the site. Thanks again.

Dave

Kerry Pinkerton
02-07-2005, 12:05 PM
I've seen the dies. They are about a inch and a quarter in diameter and have an 'insert' of some lightweight metal. Perhaps titanium?? Certainly not steel from the weight. They are not polished which also helps holding the metal.

When I was using my dies, I used a 2" diameter upper and a domed 2" lower with about a 6" radius. At first these were polished and while it worked it was slow. After I roughed the surface up with a DA sander they worked much better and still did not mark the surface.

It's really just tuck shrinking. Pull the metal down to form the tuck then crush the tuck from the back to the front and repeat. Just tuck shrinking.

I agree that Kent is a very competent Metalshaper as well as a unique individual....

kenklose
02-07-2005, 07:52 PM
When Kent White is using his shrinking dies at the edge of the panel he is tuck shrinking. But what is he doing when he uses them at the center of a panel. I've seen him on a video start at the center of 6" dome with his shrinking dies and take the dome down to a flat in the center.

Richard K
02-08-2005, 03:12 AM
Richard "Rod Doc"

Can you post some plans and dimensions for the proper way to make a die. I would like to see both lower and upper die details.

Hemirambler
02-08-2005, 09:08 AM
Hi Richard,

While I won't totally disagree with your post - I will say I have made dies with STRAIGHT pins and they do in fact work. I would suggest it has MORE to do with the hit zone (crush area - aka smiley face ) and what I call the aspect ratio (for lack of the proper term) as well as the inclination angle. To suggest it is focused on the pin shape alone is a bit misleading - IMHO.

I'm NOT suggesting those might not work better - heck I have no idea as I've only ever used my straight pin dies - but the striaght design certainly CAN be made to function satisfactorily. And for those of use with manual machines and limited budgets - that might be all we need.

I think it all comes down to manufacturability versus budget and of course certain compromises are tolerable as the negative impact to the results are sometimes minimal.

Sometimes some smart marketing fella sells us a bill of goods that force us to purchase unnecessary features we don't really need all in the guise of necessity. Smart folks they are - probably why I'll never make the dough they do. :cry:


just thinking out loud


Jacin in Ohio

rsanter
02-08-2005, 12:36 PM
well I can kind of see both sides here. I would agree that the contoured shape could make a neater tuck. of course we could just do a bit of grinding on the pin to achieve the result. heck, if we wanted we could TIG the area between the pin and plate and a little more grinding would give nearly the same thing

bob

Richard K
02-08-2005, 04:11 PM
I have had GOOD experience with the inserted pin dies. I believe Jacin was one the the first people to offer help on constructing such a die.

The pin type seems to be much more effective at shrinking than the counter type, however, marking is more pronounced with the pin (so far). I am beginning to think that the shape of the recess in the top die is more important than the shape of the pin. With the countered pin one makes a corresponding spoon shape top recess. I will soon try a pin with the spoon shape recess. the results will be interesting.

Ron Naida
02-08-2005, 04:35 PM
[quote="kerry pinkerton"]I've seen the dies. They are about a inch and a quarter in diameter and have an 'insert' of some lightweight metal. Perhaps titanium?? Certainly not steel from the weight. They are not polished which also helps holding the metal. ] snip



"mystery material?"
8th grade science class.. Remember the ribbon shaped material looking a little like strips of aluminum but did a little poof and burned when touched with a match. Mag.................

I filed a few strokes on the bottom of my dies and the filings burned. Draw your own conclusions.

Ron Naida

tdoty
02-08-2005, 05:20 PM
Magnesium? Darn, I have some titanium I was going to send to someone who might volunteer to cut it into a die in exchange for a blank of their own. I ain't got no magnesium though.

Another question, how do you put a compound curve into a piece of metal without shrinking or stretching?
The lower die has to put a compound curve into the tuck.

The pin type design makes more sense to me because it's a straight bend - just like using a tucking fork.

I have to get back to my dies, as well as my Anders Hammer! I'm used to working in aluminum. After Randy's Regional meet this past weekend I never want to tuck shrink steel again!

All of this is being absorbed, to, hopefully, be put to good use later.

Tim D.

tdoty
02-08-2005, 06:25 PM
Another question, how do you put a compound curve into a piece of metal without shrinking or stretching?
The lower die has to put a compound curve into the tuck.

Duh, by drawing! Have to forgive me y'all, I've been sick since leaving Robinson Saturday night and I guess I'm not thinking real well right now :oops: .

Tim D.

777ralph
02-08-2005, 06:54 PM
Tim
I just saw someone today, light up some Titanium shavings from his lathe. Burned nice and bright! The "mystery metal" could be Titanium, and since you already have some.......try what you've got.
Ralph

Boogiemanz1
02-08-2005, 11:21 PM
OK guys what are the properties of this "mystery metal? and how do they affect the shrinking process......we know they are both light and burn.............what else?..............john

tdoty
02-09-2005, 01:23 PM
Purely theory here John, but I've been thinking the lighter dies would be much less likely to stretch the metal than a heavier die. We are talking about pneumatic hammers and not "power" hammers, so die weight does make some difference.

Personally, I would love to see the technique that makes so much difference :lol: !

Tim D.

Kerry Pinkerton
02-09-2005, 05:22 PM
Tim, take a bowl shaped piece of steel. Put it in your air hammer with a rounded lower die and flat upper, Push the metal in and out while Pulling DOWN on it on the outstroke. Tucks or ruffles will form. work your hammer blows up the tuck from the inside to out to crush the tuck.

That's the process. It takes a considerable hammer and dies that are not TOO polished.

tdoty
02-09-2005, 05:27 PM
It takes a considerable hammer.....
That, I'm not sure about, mine will move metal, but it's no "Ivan" (from what I've heard anyway :lol: )

.....and dies that are not TOO polished.
That, I can do! :lol: :lol: I have a couple that are looking a, ummmm, uhhhhh, less than perfectly polished :lol: . They're not too ugly though.

Thanks Kerry, I'll have to try that out!

Tim D.

Ron Naida
02-10-2005, 12:33 AM
.

Personally, I would love to see the technique that makes so much difference :lol: !

Tim D.[/quote]

http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=99801 13544105&ownerid=9990107792461

On the MSA site there is an album. Howard Booster I believe put it up.

Ron Naida

Jvarnell
02-10-2005, 06:38 AM
Do you really want to have surface contact so far back on the tuck part. I think if you don't have contact by .001" about half way back on the tuck you will have better shrinking.

Boogiemanz1
02-10-2005, 07:44 AM
John, I don't understand what you are saying? PLease elaborate............john

Jvarnell
02-10-2005, 08:58 AM
Here is what I am talking about die contact area.

tkelly
02-18-2005, 05:40 AM
I am finding your tutorial on shrinker die theory quite interesting and am looking forward to the part on how the tuck and crush works. I can hear the sizzle, please give us the steak! :)

tkelly
02-21-2005, 06:26 PM
To Richard K. I am finding your tutorial on shrinker die theory quite interesting and am looking forward to the part on how the tuck and crush works. I can hear the sizzle, please give us the steak! :)[/quote]