tinmans bead roller

[Tisdelski]

tinman brought his motorized bead roller to mm04. was curious as to what he used for his motor, speed reducer, and go pedal. i would like to put a motor on my roller. i found his picture of his roller in his gallery but don`t know how to post the picture here. thanks gary

[KustomsRus]

Gary, I don't know if this is the picture you're talking about or not. Just find the picture you want to post in the message--right click the location in the address bar---click copy---then go to your message text area and right click---then click paste and it will put the location in the text.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2233&password=&sort=1&cat=all& page=1

Gary, I thought I knew how to put a picture in the post too but I forgot, will try to figure it out.



Jerry Kennedy

[anders nørgaard]

Gary wrote:

tinman brought his motorized bead roller to mm04. was curious as to what he used for his motor, speed reducer, and go pedal. i would like to put a motor on my roller. i found his picture of his roller in his gallery but don`t know how to post the picture here. thanks gary

Here it is Gary.

To paste an image from the Gallery:

Right click on the large pic.
Click Properties
Copy properties URL

In Post Reply:
Click img
right click, paste.
Click img*

Voila, the image is there :!:

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/500/832DCP_088901.JPG


Anders DK

[KustomsRus]

Thanks Anders you helped us both :D :D :D

Jerry Kennedy

[anders nørgaard]

Jerry,

You're welcome :D :!:

Peace of cake, when the image is in the Gallery.
But I am still not able to upload new pics,

I know.. this last comment belongs in another topic.

Anders DK

[Sam Lee]

Looks like a DC gearhead motor,with an adjustable power supply.

[Tisdelski]

hey guys , i just noticed bob baisden has his roller motorized w/ a foot pedal also could one of you guys put that picture up also so we can figure out where bob got his . thanks for helping the computer illiterate. gary

[Boogiemanz1]

Are you guys referring to this bead roller?http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3078/17broller3-med.jpg and this motor http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3078/17broller2-med.jpg


There is a post on the roller and the drive here by Bob Baisden
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1687

..................john

[Tisdelski]

thanks john, thats exactly what i`m looking for. gary

[ralph]

Surplus center no longer has those motor available.

Grainger has them new in several speeds from 4 to 100 rpm at about $140. They also have a variable foot switch available at about $30-35.
http://www.grainger.com/
Search on AC/dc gearmotor. The foot switch is hard to find. The Grainger # is 5KX07.

They also carry lovejoy couplings.

Grainger tends to be pricey, but they usually stock what they catalog and you can usually get a discount thru where you work.

[PSH949]

An entire set-up similar to this with a reversing switch is available from Tools Plus. It costs just a bit more than if you sourced each piece indiviually from the cheapest supplier you can find on the web but then again it is easier and faster to get it all from one place and have it come to you assembled. It's what I used to motorized my reworked Harbor Freight Roller.

Steven Winnett

[tdoty]

No pics yet, but I motorized my beadroller this weekend!

I used the same motor Bob Baisden used, but I got mine off of eBay for $15.75 - shipping included. Instead of direct drive, I used a pulley setup on mine. It was easier for me to just make a motor mount and add some pulleys. I'm also using a Leeson Speedmaster speed controller - grabbed from the dumpster at work (apparently someone thought it was fried, I figured I could fix it - turns out the voltage switches were set wrong 8) ). Besides, the pulley helps "jump start" the bead roller when it hits a spot a bit too tight for the 1/10hp motor and belt drive. Yep, got a bit of belt slippage that will be cured with a new, properly sized belt :oops: . I didn't have a belt handy, so I grabbed the one off of my drill press.

It reverses with a toggle switch, I'll go to a directional footswitch when I get around to wiring the required relays. It works now, but, I can do better 8) ! Couldn't tell ya'll how many times that phrase has gotten me into trouble :oops: .

It's really nice and controllable (something I worried about) and makes the bead roller much easier to use alone. Besides, the machine doesn't wobble when I run a bead now!

Keep your eyes open for parts - they show up everywhere!

Tim D.

[Tisdelski]

ok tim , now i`m going to need a picture of yours also. thanks gary

[tdoty]

Okay, it ain't pretty, but it does work. Once I get the motor mount finished off, the whole thing is going to get a new coat of paint.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_2578.jpg
Here's the motor and pulley layout.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_2581.jpg
And here is the control box and my high-tech footswitch!

The relay in the control box handles reversing the polarity to the motor and the foot switch inhibits the motor. By taking advantage of the built in inhibit function, I can adjust how quickly the motor accelerates and decelerates when the "pedal" is pushed or released. The footswitch is a Micro Switch brand limit switch.

HTH,

Tim D.

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Tim, I have to say that you are one creative dude! You seem to be able to make more good tools out of less stuff than about anyone I know. :lol:

You win the "never stop asking what if" award for November.

[tdoty]

You win the "never stop asking what if" award for November.

But, Kerry, I hadn't even started on it last month - had I??????? Ummmm, nope............won the auction for the motor, but only cuz it was cheap and useful.

And, remember "You must be present to be here" :P

Thanks for the compliment!!!!!

Tim D.

[Gene_Olson]

Tim,
don't you want the reversing switch in the foot pedal?

G.

[tdoty]

Gene,

Yup, I do want the reversing switch in the footpedal. However, I couldn't do it at the time :? . The way this particular controller works, I'll need 3 relays (or a type of switches I don't have) and I only had room for 2 in the control box.

Pretty soon, I'll wire in smaller relays and 2 momentary foot switches and make it even easier to use. Having to flip the little toggle switch is still easier than cranking it by hand :lol:

I'll post pics when I get it done.............even a wiring diagram if it would help anyone!

Tim D.

[Boogiemanz1]

Tim, are you talking about wiring a CW circuit and a CCW circuit and connecting them to separate switches? How would that react to switching from one to another?

I'd be interested in your diagram.....I'm OK on DC circuits, but AC can lose me occasionally........... :o ..........john

[Gene_Olson]

wouldn't a double pole double throw center off take care of all that?

you could tie it to a foot pedal with springs on both sides so you could rock it forward or back.

G.

[tdoty]

Gene, yes and no. The reversing could be handled that way, but I need a seperate signal for allowing it to run.

No diagram yet, but the basic run down is 2 relays for removing the Inhibit signal (one for each direction) and a third to handle reversing the polarity. I wanted to do it with 2 relays, but the issue of removing the inhibit signal came up. I can do the whole thing with 2 relays, and just just interrupt the output voltage, but it will start full speed and stop instantly. With the inhibit signal, it ramps up to speed and decellerates when using the pedal.

Even now, it's no big deal to reach over and flip the reversing switch. Beats the heck out of having to reach over and turn the handle to run a bead :D .

Tim D.

[Troy]

Tim


If the bead roller is under a load do the belts slip? I'm just curious.



Troy

[tdoty]

Troy,

Yep, the belt slips a bit from time to time, but that's only because I have the wrong belt on it right now. I couldn't find the belt I had in mind for the job (my garage is a mess - look in the background of the pics :oops: ), so I just grabbed the one from my 5-speed benchtop drill press. My drill press uses a very narrow belt, so it doesn't fit the grooves in the pulleys very well.

From what I've seen so far, it's going to take some serious bind to get the right size belt to slip. With the narrow belt, it takes a moderate load to slip the belt. Ususally, I can just nudge the pulley by hand to get it spinning right again.

More of my low budget work - look around the garage and see what I can make from it :lol: . I'll get a proper belt Friday or Saturday...............maybe Sunday, since that's my only day off this week :(

Tim D.

[Tisdelski]

hi tim, maybe try a belt tensioner off a car? gary

[tdoty]

Gary, I might try a belt tensioner, but the biggest problem is the belt is just too darn narrow! It sits all the way at the bottom of the groove in the pulley :shock: ! I actually turned it inside out, and it works better (with the V side out) :shock: :shock: ! Gonna start with the proper belt :lol:

I'll keep the tensioner idea in mind if I need it later though 8)

Thanks,

Tim D.

[tdoty]

Okay, time for a bit more explanation of the belt slippage problem.

As I mentioned before, I lost the belt I had planned to use on the bead roller, so I stole the one from my drill press. It wasn't slipping due to a lack of tension, it was because the belt was too narrow. A V-belt drives on the sides of the Vee, not on the "inner face" of the belt.

Therefore, this caused a problem:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_25781.jpg

Another view shows the narrowness of the belt in relation to the pulley used on the motor:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_2610.jpg
(Sorry it's blurry, my batteries were going dead - and I would have had to walk all the way into the house to change them :lol: )

Well, I broke down and spent $3 on another belt - it's too short, but it does make a difference. With the motor mount C-clamped in place instead of bolted, it has enough oomph now to roll a 1/2" bead in .063" aluminum in one pass. Okay, that's not the right way to do it, but I did it as an example 8) . It works better in 3 passes - steel or aluminum. I'll get a longer belt soon.

Here's the new belt to illustrate the difference:
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3392/2691100_2608.jpg

It works much better now!

Tim D.

[BigBadBob]

How important is it to have reverse on a bead roller?

Thanks
Bob

[tdoty]

You might be able to work around it, but I think reverse is a necessity!

I couldn't live without it!

Tim D.

[Tinman]

Bead roll

[tdoty]

John,

Neat idea! I think I'll have to remove one of my drive gears and see what happens! If it works.......well, ummm............new bead roller time! I don't really see why it wouldn't work...........but, if it doesn't work, maybe I can show you why :lol: .

As I said, I think someone could get used to no reverse, but patience is a virtue - just not one of mine :twisted: . So much easier to give 'er another crank and back up!

Tim D.

[Tisdelski]

tinman is always thinking, did you see his planishing hammer at mm04 with the e-wheel anvil lower , very smooth. now i`m going to have to try my roller with only 1 powered die to see what it does. how many horse motor is being used and what is the rpm ? went on e-bay to look at motors and realized i have no idea what i`m looking for. also does the motor have to be ac and dc to be reversible? thanks gary

[Boogiemanz1]

John, another member suggested that at MM04. I am working on such a bead roller at this time. By removing the non drive gear from my beader I had at MM04, it just requires a little more finesse to start and back up until you get use to what pressures to use. I hope to have a nice one to show right after the first of the year.

MY question, everyone wants a beader with a huge throat, how deep a throat (keep your mind on metal) is used. I have had an old plexto for years. It has a very shallow throat depth, maybe 5-6 inches, but has done everything I ever needed except one job.

Does anyone regularly use a depth of more than 16 inches?. I want to build a beader that is more versatile, and rigid, but do we need 24"?.........john

[tdoty]

Finesse! That's what's missing :lol: It didn't work very well for me, the driven roller just kind of spun :oops:

Boogieman, I agree on throat depth. I'm not running a production shop, but I see very little need to run a bead in the center of a 4 ft panel :? . There may be that very rare case, but 18" seems acceptable. Maybe make the 24" (+?) model a special order?

I'll have to try the single driven roller again, with a bit more patience this time!

Gary, my motor is a 90vDC, 1/10hp (?, forgot to look at that) with a gearbox giving an output speed of 89 RPM. DC motors are usually easier to reverse. The 90 volt controller is relatively easy to make if you need to - I've got a schematic somewhere for a homemade controller that's pretty close to the Leeson controller I'm using. If you really want a Leeson controller like mine, I MIGHT be able to sell you one with the footswitch and required relays..................MAYBE :lol: . Right now, the only spare controller I have is a Dayton SCR controller that I haven't had a chance to check out yet. The Dayton is listed as a 230VAC input, 180VDC output, but I'm thinking I can rewire to work at 90VDC with 115 in.

I also have a lead on some 110VAC, 1/10 hp motors. I'll have to check them out and see if they are reversible (I think they are). Also have to see how much I'll have in the lot :lol: .

Tim D.

[anders nørgaard]

Hi All,

It's gonna be weekend soon :D and maybe somebody are going to the workshops :D 8)

I just uploaded this wiring diagram in the Gallery. This is a way to connect a DC motor to be able to run both ways. Actually this is the wiring of an electric sliding sunroof :shock: By the way, Tim, you said around 1/10 hp.... thats app. 75W :idea: :idea: These little motors in a sliding sun roof are strong little bastards. I'm sure one of those will be able to pull a beadroller :D :!:

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/513/4433DC_Reverse_Control_Switch-med.jpg

The speed would be controllable too, if a potentiometer is added in either the positive or the negative wire between the relay and the motor.

Hope somebody can use this :D :!:

Anders DK

[tdoty]

Yeah :!: :!: :!:

I'm sure there are plenty of automotive DC motors that could be used! Sliding sunroofs, power windows, maybe even a wiper motor! Anybody up for trying an old Mopar gear reduction starter :lol: :lol: :lol: . Attach a flexplate to the bead roller and drive it with a modified bendix? Go ahead, laugh, it's funny...............................but I actually considered trying it :lol: :oops: :shock:

The only problem might be finding a suitable power supply ( a battery charger would work though 8) ). Using a potentiometer to reduce the voltage will indeed vary the speed on a DC motor. I'll have to check the schematic I have to see if it can be modified to work with 12 volts. Why the schematic and not just use a pot? Well, there is a minor problem with only reducing the voltage - the torque is reduced too. There is a way around it, but it takes more parts :? . I'll see what I can come up with.

It might be a cheap and easy way to get a powered bead roller! Might not be the best way, but, then again, neither is mine :lol: .

Tim D.

[Kerry Pinkerton]

No reason a 12V dc motor wouldn't work. A starter motor sounds like it'd be the way to go. As a matter of fact I have several of those Mopar gear reduction starters laying around..... I'd probably just mount a 12V battery down on the base for extra ballast and run off that. Put a trickle charger on it and unlesss you were in for a several straight days of bead rolling marathons, I'd suspect the battery would hold up fine.. Be easy to reverse also and PLENTY of torque...

[sleepy]

Hi Guys
I stopped at the military surplus today. They have 3 DC controllers (reliance brand) for 20$ each. 230v input to 180 VDC with reostat speed control with for/rev and start/ stop switches.
Capacity is 1 1/2 hp this has me thinking, beader or powerhammer?
brian

[tdoty]

Hey, mount a battery to it? Nahhh......that's too easy for me :lol: . Good one! Then you would have the amperage reserve, and a little battery charger would do the work...............hmmmmm.

Be easy to reverse also and PLENTY of torque...

PLENTY of torque is right :shock: . Just make sure you know where your fingers are!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Actually, with the speed reduced to a reasonable rate, it's no more a worry than running over your fingers on an E-wheel. Maybe even less because of the smaller wheels and smaller opening :?:

Brian, $20 is a good price on the controller. Chad Thomas mentioned a direct drive, variable speed helve hammer a while back - might be just the ticket for that. Uh-oh, here I go straying into another topic again 8) .

Tim D.

[wheelsc67]

hi
i was just wondering if anybody has ever considered or tried using a air ratchet with a belt pulley or sprocket and chair for gear reduction. its reversible you can use a foot controller and cheap plus most everybody already has one. you could put a bolt on the drive sprocket/pulley hub and just use the proper size socket on the ratchet and some sort of clamp to hold it in place while its being used. when you done beadrolling you could remove the ratchet and still use it around the shop. i haven't tried it yet but i can't see why it wouldn't work.
just thinking out loud
chris

[Boogiemanz1]

Chris, there is no reason it would not work. It would be loud, but very strong...really a good idea.

I'm sure the Chrysler starter motor would work...my motorcycle chassis dyno had one. It was used to spin the drum + the rear wheel to bump start bikes on the dyno..

Some of the old ford starters work pretty well, I have a 12vdc winch with one of those. It has forward and reverse.

Come on guys ......how deep is deep enough?

............john

[Tisdelski]

hi chris, i`m wondering if the air ratchet is smooth enough, it seems my air ratchet is very jerky . but i definitely think it has enough power. the thought i had today was maybe using a power seat motor, it has forward and reverse i think it would be strong enough and could be powered of a small battery charger. gary

[tdoty]

Gary, neat idea w/ a power seat motor. I'd still recommend going with Kerry's suggestion of using a battery. Why? Those motors can draw quite a bit of current under load, and the battery supplies the current. That way, the charger isn't loaded, unless you have a charger sitting around. I wouldn't go with anything rated for under 20 amps, and that's assuming the motor is designed for a 15 amp circuit.

Chris, the air ratchet would work. As John said, it'd be loud, and it'd sure drain my compressor quick enough :lol: . Until I realized it was a typo, I was mystyfied by the use of a chair in the system though :oops: :lol: . Heck, you might be able to forgo the pulley or sprocket and just direct drive it with an air ratchet!

Lots of ideas going now.

John, I find 16-18 to be plenty so far. For that matter, I don't think I've used over 9 inches yet.

Tim D.

[wheelsc67]

hi
i was thinking of the gear reduction for control not power. i guess it would be hard on air but so is everything else i use lol. i was also thinking about using an electric drill to power mine it might be a better choice they are variable speed and reversible. as for dc motors with batterys really good idea and cheap but if other shops are like mine a good battery only lasts a few months before it disappears or gets ruined. if people do go with the 12v battery method don't over look sitting the battery on a cement floor,its a great way to kill a good battery.
chris

[Tisdelski]

hi chris, i like your idea of using a drill, i wonder how much power it makes compared to tim`s 1/10 horse motor? as far as the battery on the concrete self draining, in the early days of battery`s the case was made with a material which would drain if put directly on concrete or especially on asphalt. the plastics that they have been using to make the cases from the late 1950`s on do not leak. it seems its easyer to put the battery on a piece of wood then to dispell the myth. maybe a good topic for myth busters on the discovery channel. gary

[Boogiemanz1]

There are some high torque drill motors out there that I'm sure could turn it, if not it could take advantage of using pulleys to gear it down.....a variable speed and reversible a must!

[wheelsc67]

hi again,
as with anything i do it seems what im thinking and what i say may be slightly different lol. usually i forget to mention some things that may be important in describing my ideas. my thinking with the drill for a power source included a gear reduction to multiply torque and slow the feed speed down to something a bit more controllable. i think if the drill were to be used directly without reduction it might have a tendency to over heat if you were trying to use it on a slow speed. i was also thinking if i were to build it i would construct it in such a way i could remove the drill when not using the roller. if the drive pulley were placed between two pillow bearings with some shaft exposed you could simply chuck the drill to the exposed shaft. welding a fork shaped structure under this drive shaft to contain the drills handle and keep it from turning would be all thats needed to keep it in place while powering the roller. the fork would also make a great place to mount a cable with a piviot (to pull the drills trigger) going to a foot pedal. well i guess its an exact copy of an air planishing hammers cable control. for reverse i guess i will have to reach down to the drill motor for that one. the way i see it with this setup you should be able to install and remove the drill almost as quickly as changing a bit (i know its really called a drill). the cost to try it isn't much, maybe later on this week i will if i get time.

crazy idea? maybe.
chris

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Chris and John, the variable speed drill sounds like a great solution. I have a cheap B&D half inch variable speed/reversble drill that has a broken chuck.....hummmmm

[Tisdelski]

going with chris and john on the drill idea, is there a way to wire the drill to a footpedal? thats probably a dumb question, a better question would be: how can a footpedal be installed? gary

[Boogiemanz1]

Gary, I would think a footpedal could be wired between the wall plug and a recept box. Then the drill is plugged in, and a tie wrap or whatever pulling the trigger switch.

My Dremel Pro came with a pedal wired that way, I use it on other stuff.

[tdoty]

The drill footswitch is a fairly easy one to do - just take apart the drill and look at how the trigger is wired. Use a potentiometer with the same values as the one in the drill (use an ohmmeter and some common sense), and a normally open footswitch - you could even use a couple of DPDT switches to have one for forward and one for reverse. Just study the way the drill is wired from the factory.

Want it simple? Use a pushbutton, momentary normally open switch rated for at least 5 amps (might be more, check the ID label on the drill and use a slightly larger capacity switch) and patch it in between the wall outlet and the drill....................just like John said.

The worry I have with the drill is not power, but torque. Most drills don't have a lot of torque on the low end. My 1/3 horsepower Craftsman drill doesn't have near the torque of the gear motor I'm using, so gearing down a drill motor setup is likely a must. Even with a 1/6 horsepower motor geared down to 89 RPM, I'm using a 2 inch pulley on the motor and an 8 on the beadroller.

One other thing to think about for controlling the drill motor, most drills use a universal motor - they'll run on AC or DC as long as the voltage is close. There is a ton of info out there on speed controlling a universal motor - as well as reversing them (just like a DC motor, swap the leads :D )

HTH,

Tim D.

[Kerry Pinkerton]

I've been thinking about the drill thing. I don't know electronics for crap. but I'm sure it is do'able.

My concern with drills is the bearings on the motor. They're not designed for side loads so gearing it down without putting it through some pillowblock bearings like they did with the Helve Hammers would probalbly result in some early failure.

[wheelsc67]

hi again
in my more in depth explanation of my idea i did state that the drive pulley was supported between two bearings but i wasn't thinking of sideload on the drill only ease of installing and removing it. i agree if you were to use the drill with a pulley simply supported by the chuck the sideload would most likely take the bearings out of the drill quickly. a very good thing to be warned of i would hate to hear of someones new drill being ruined trying one of my ideas
chris

[tdoty]

I've been thinking about the drill thing. I don't know electronics for crap. but I'm sure it is do'able.

Kerry, no need for electronics with a drill - it's all straight forward electrical :lol: . Might be semantics, I dunno, but electrical doesn't involve any tricky components in my definition :lol: . Basically, you need to duplicate the stuff inside the trigger - in a more accessible location.

Good call on the side loads. Where I work, they have the Milwaukee drills stored by hanging them from a piece of 3/8" rod - just stick the rod in the chuck and let it hang :? . That's enough to bother me :lol: . A 1/2" Milwaukee is a pretty heavy drill :shock: .

A pillow block or 2 (or just a brass or bronze block - no need to get fancy) and a cradle to support the drill should do it just fine.

Tim D.

[Dema]

Hi, if can help, here are some pictures of my powered bead roller

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1572
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1573
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1574
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1575
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1576
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1577

Dema