E-wheel construction

[anders nørgaard]

Hi there

I am planning to make myself an E-wheel. It is a bench model with a throat of app. 24".

I plan to put it together as shown in the fig. The "blue stuff" is 3/16"x5" steel plate. The "red stuff" is 3/16"x1-1/4" steel. The "green stuff" is 1/8" steelplate bent into a right angle.

I know that this way of construction will give me a lot of "weldingpractice" buy I add the red and blue cross section to add rigidity to the frame.





Please let me know if anybody has comments/suggestions

Anders
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/500/4433Measuresheet_E_wheel.jpg

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/506/4433Ewheel_Skals-med.jpg

[cyberrodder]

Adjustable Top anvil I presume?

Looks ok, factor in your support bolting it to the table.
You going make it out of angle iron or cut boxed steel up?

You certainly will get plenty of welding practice good luck.

cyber.

[anders nørgaard]

Adjustable Top anvil I presume?

Looks ok, factor in your support bolting it to the table.
You going make it out of angle iron or cut boxed steel up?

You certainly will get plenty of welding practice good luck.

cyber.

Yeah ofcourse it will be an adjustable top anvil.

I plan to weld a plate under the bootom so that I can either bolt it to a table or a heavy moveable stand.

I have a friend and former college who is blacksmith and has access to a pressbrake. He will make the anglepieces for me in 8' lengths (makes smoother corners).

Mig welding is no problem.

Thanks Anders in Denmark

[tdoty]

Anders,

That looks like a good design! I think you might want a little more space between the upper wheel and the anvil though. It's not scaled in the drawing, but there doesn't appear to be a lot of room there - but I guess that all depends on the wheels you intend to use.

With an 8" upper, upper yoke, 3" anvils and a lower yoke, that's going to add up to well over 12" between the upper and lower arms.

With a 6" wheel, upper yoke, 2" anvils and a lower yoke, it's still over 10". Then you need "adjustment room" so you can get the anvils out of the yoke.

The basic design looks rather nice, and, once welded, it should be a nice, strong piece. You might be able to just add some height to the backbone to make sure everything fits :D

Tim D.

[anders nørgaard]

Anders,

That looks like a good design! I think you might want a little more space between the upper wheel and the anvil though. It's not scaled in the drawing, but there doesn't appear to be a lot of room there - but I guess that all depends on the wheels you intend to use.

With an 8" upper, upper yoke, 3" anvils and a lower yoke, that's going to add up to well over 12" between the upper and lower arms.

With a 6" wheel, upper yoke, 2" anvils and a lower yoke, it's still over 10". Then you need "adjustment room" so you can get the anvils out of the yoke.

The basic design looks rather nice, and, once welded, it should be a nice, strong piece. You might be able to just add some height to the backbone to make sure everything fits :D

Tim D.

Hi Tim

Thanks.

I guess you´re right about the clearance between the anvils. And if I add length to the backbone I still have a lot of space for rolling tunnels etc.

I haven´t decided on which size of anvils to use/make..... not a lot of people in Denmark knows an E-wheel, so I´ll have to look a litlle bit around to find something I can use. Maybe a trip to Germany will solve my problem (company pays the gas :D )

Thanks again for your help

[tdoty]

Anders,

My opinion on the anvils to use would be simply to design it to work with 3" diameter anvils. If you use 2" anvils, there should be enough adjustment to allow proper use. By designing for the 3" anvils, using 2" anvils won't be a problem - but you might not be able to go the other way. Simply put, designing for larger anvils, allows you to use smaller ones if you like.

Then, it's just a matter of making up yokes to work with the anvils you have, and any you might make or pick up later.


HTH,

Tim D.

[cyberrodder]

Anders,

go have have a look at Kerry New ewheels, (not to pinch his particulars) but you could get away with running just a solid bar like his. My ewheel uses this system but I have changed it to run a bar run right threw the inside of the frame. Wasnt happy with it thought it flexed a little too much.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/500/3206IMG_0566_ewheel-med.JPG

I have changed it since I took this picture. Also I ended up bolting it to the concrete so it doesnt move at all now. My gallery has another shot of it.
I have still some more work I want to do on it but at the moment I can do what I want with it.

cyber

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Hi there


I am planning to make myself an E-wheel. It is a bench model with a throat of app. 24".

I plan to put it together as shown in the fig. The "blue stuff" is 3/16"x5" steel plate. The "red stuff" is 3/16"x1-1/4" steel. The "green stuff" is 1/8" steelplate bent into a right angle.

Please let me know if anybody has comments/suggestions

Anders

Hi Anders, Some comments. The overall design will work very well. It looks a lot like our smaller machines. I'd move the tool arm back by shortening the bottom frame piece so it come up at closer to a 45 degree angle. That will give you more flexibility for special tool arms for special needs. EVERY configuration has limitations. The modular tool arm approach is the best solution to minimizing those limitations imho.

Welding...yeah! Unless you are REALLY into pain, I'd suggest going with tube instead of all the pieces. I'd be concerned about the warpage with all that welding. Plus, given the cost of wire and gas, I doubt you'd save much money. If you can't find 3x6 or 3x5, you can use two pieces of 3x3 and stack them.

Finally regarding the throat size, I'd suggest something other than 24". Imho, 24" is the worst possible size for a wheel since you will be unable to do a 48" panel without hitting the backbone. I'd make it at least 25" or less than 24" so you won't be tempted to try a 48" panel.

[CCWKen]

LOL... Bench tops aren't meant to roll 48" panels Kerry. I've got a 14" bench top I've found very usefull. Works great for small panels and tight places. For big pieces, I go to the 36". It depends a lot on what you do with it. No need for a 767 if your just going next door. :D

[Dutch Comstock]

Anders, I would also advise as Kerry did to make your wheel with a 25 or 26 inch throat. Your strcture engineerin is strong enough that you will have a nice working wheel and if you are almost there on depth why not go all of the way to be able to use a full size sheet when needed. I would also design for the 3 inch anvils and then you would always have that avaliability to go to them. If you did do much larger work the panels will go faster because of the larger contact area. If your choic is to do smaller deep shape work the 2 inch anvils will allow you to do the tighter work easier. Your machine will be able to cover the best of two worlds.
Making your wheel frame out of the smaller parts will not be two big of a problem with heat warpage if you weld the backbone first and then build the lower tool arm and the upper adjusting head last and custom fit them to the frame making sure they line up with each other when fully welded. Dutch

[anders nørgaard]

Hi all you guys,

First of all, thanks for your comments/suggestions to my E-wheel project. :D

Tim D,

Sure it must be 3� anvils, so that I can go smaller if I want to.

Kerry,

Until a month or so ago, I didn’t know the existence of neither an E-wheel nor this GREAT site. I just accidentally/luckily stumbled over it.

It looks a lot like your smaller machines…. As I decided on making an E-wheel, I browsed the gallery and found your wheels very good looking! :D And… why should I “reinvent� the gunpowder… the Chinese did that over 1000 years ago.

Hope you don’t mind me using your concept? :D :oops:

About the bottom frame and shortening: You’re right. Will do!

Considering the small angle parts contra tubing; if I use tubing it will be very difficult/impossible for me to weld it properly to the inner reinforcement frame!?
And best of all: The little angle pieces are for free!! :D

The throat is actually 26 in. Guess the calculating went wrong during converting from metrical system. :oops: I found that it would be easier for one person (me) to recalculate from metrical to in. than (hopefully) for a lot of guys in US to do it.

Ken,

I don’t nave room for a 767. :lol:

Dutch,

Thanks for all your advice. I think you’re right about the welding/varpage. Her is what I plan to do:
First I’ll weld the inner structure together and make sure it is straight.
Then I’ll tack weld all the little pieces to the inner structure (no twisting should occur).
Then I’ll weld the front and rear, changing sides on the arms, one by one, to avoid twisting from heat.
Lastly I will have a friend (former college) mill the “bracket� ? on the lower arm, to make sure everything is straight/perpendicular.

About the 3� and 2� anvil contact area. Hadn’t thought of that…. I’m new in this….. THANKS.

ALL,

As I mentioned earlier, I never knew about E-wheels until a month ago.
Gotta try it out… hurried to my basement, found an old router project, an old clamp and a “block bearing�? Welded it together. (Took me about 30 min. to make the “thing� It’s OK if you laugh! :lol:





http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/500/4433Scrapwheel-med.jpg

Took a 2�x5� of 0.0152 copper plate and started rolling………. No cheating with bending or hammering!! It worked. I was truly amazed. Turned the copper round and rolled in the other direction…… A crown started to develop. GREAT :D :o

I MUST have an E-wheel!



I know that this last item doesn’t belong in this forum. Should be in the helve hammer forum, but I ask anyway: How long is a “regular/average� “hammer arm� on a h-hammer? 4’ or so? Have to male one of these too! :!:

Hope you all understand what I wrote. My English is rusty, haven’t practiced it for many years. :oops:

Actually it is the second time I write this. :? When I write the text, go back to the gallery to find the URL. Come back to the forum to paste, something goes wrong. This time I’ve put the words into a Word.doc, not to loose it if anything goes wrong again. Then I can copy and paste, I hope. I also have put the images on my address list, not to have to do the difficult changes between Forum and Gallery and risk to loose data.

(didn't work. But this time I started out, pasting the image of the "scrap wheel" and then copied and pasted the text from my ".doc" HE HE)

THERE MUST BE AN EASIER WAY?

At the end.

THANKS AGAIN GUY’S FOR ALL YOUR HELP

[Gene_Olson]

Anders,

That is a beautiful little wheel :!:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Gotta try, Gotta try,

NOW Now now!

I think you may have done the best job in

"Get out in the shop and move metal"

award catagory for this year.

Love it.

Gene

[anders nørgaard]

Thanks Gene

[Kerry Pinkerton]

... It looks a lot like your smaller machines…. As I decided on making an E-wheel, I browsed the gallery and found your wheels very good looking! :D And… why should I “reinvent� the gunpowder… the Chinese did that over 1000 years ago.

Hope you don’t mind me using your concept? :D :oops:

About the bottom frame and shortening: You’re right. Will do!

Considering the small angle parts contra tubing; if I use tubing it will be very difficult/impossible for me to weld it properly to the inner reinforcement frame!?
And best of all: The little angle pieces are for free!! :D ]...


If you used 5x3x3/16 or larger tubing, you won't need any internal reinforcements. Our 26" frames are plenty stiff being hollow. They are the stiffest small frames I've seen and work very well in either benchtop or floor configurations.

Having said that, if it's free and you've got the time, have at it....

[anders nørgaard]

Kerry,

Sure would save me alot of time, in which I could be wheeling instead of welding :D

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Look around some fabrication shops for drops. The longest piece you will need is only 24" long. You could use 3x5, 4x5, 3x6, 4x6 or even combination of 3x3s and stack them.

[cyberrodder]

Andres, put it this way when I started my ewheel, I could not weld at all. though the ewheel distracted me from orignal project for a couple of months, but I did learn to weld and was happy I did it in the end.
As for Kerry design, I really like as well and it has my brain tick over, and I wish I could just go out and purchase one but I have to be realistic to ship something like that would cost me a small fortune. Setting that aside learn from what kerry has done and listen to the comments made, never now you may find it cheaper/easier to purchase maybe the lower anvils or the lower cradle for it. As it maybe just out of your reach to make these. I am having the same problem with my steel anvils and currently looking into options.

keep going, mate. :D

Dave.

[anders nørgaard]

Hey Kerry,

Thanks for the tips, might save me alot of time........could start to make a helve hammer too?

[anders nørgaard]

Dave,

Welding is no problem for me. I've been teaching MIG welding to mechanic apprentices for about 15 years. Glad you learned, even the hard way! :)
Sure I'll listen to Kerry. He knows what he's talking about. No doubt about that :!: :!: :!:

Like you, I have the same problems considering the anvils. Nobody in Denmark makes them and shipping from US will cost a fortune. Maybe I'll have to go to Germany to buy a set from Dinosaurier? Or maybe I can talk a friend with a CNC lathe into making them for me. He has a car that needs a little maintenance now and then. Maybe we can swap :lol: :lol:

Thanks for your comments.

Anders

[dribble]

G'day from New Zealand,Hi Anders and Kerry,

After following the threads on e-wheels for sometime I finally biult one,4"x4"x.125" post and arms with 2"x2" "outside" bracing.I found that wheeling at higher pressures the frame was still opening up,since I'm only doing small pieces at the moment,I found that by attaching an industrial turnbuckle[eyebolts and shackles]between the frames some 12" away from the head this problem was solved,just another idea.

Cheers Dave[drib]

Theres no such thing as cant

[anders nørgaard]

Hi Dave,

How much throat does your wheel have? Must be big if you can flex a 4x4x1/4.

Eyebolt sounds like a good idea for small pieces.

What is actually the problem about flexing? Is it the reduction of contact area caused by the anvils getting “out of parallel?�

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/500/4433E_wheel_flex.jpg

Keep coming up with the good stuff

Anders

[dribble]

Hi Anders,

My frame is 36" from the centre of the wheels to the back of the
frame and is very similar in design to cyberrodders,the anvil also has a grub screw in each corner to take out any misalignment.Im very much a beginner and am still learning heaps.I do plan to put further bracing plates on the inside of the frame backbone but so far it's working very well.
ps am getting a digital camera soon and will post photos as soon as possible

cheers drib

"if i only had time"

[anders nørgaard]

Hi Drib.

OK 36" is quite a machine.

What time is it where you are? Here it is 12 noon. Often when I write something here, there is no respond until the next day, because the US guys are 7 hours "behind" on the east coast.

Anders

[Kerry Pinkerton]

...What is actually the problem about flexing? Is it the reduction of contact area caused by the anvils getting “out of parallel?�

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/500/4433E_wheel_flex.jpg



Anders, that is it exactly. Alignment changes with pressure if the frame flexes. One of the biggest 'issues' I've seen with a lot of home built frames is lack of adjustability. At the end of the day if you cannot keep the axles for your upper wheel and anvils parallel at different wheeling pressures, your contact patch will be off and you will likely be wheeling on the transision zone. Of course, if you are using true radius anvils it will have no impact other than what some believe are the issues surrounding true radius anvils :lol: :shock: ,a topic for another thread...

We address this by having the lower yoke mounting plate drilled and tapped for a 3/8" center hole and 4 others 1" away from center. At 12, 3, 6, 9 o'clock if you are looking straight down on it. Regular 3/8" short bolts are screwed into the outlying holes and the yoke sits on top of them fastened down in the center hole. To adjust the machine, we put a flat anvil in the yoke and adjust the bolts side to side for equal surface contact (we use the crack of light method). In the unusual event we want to wheel under heavy pressure, you can do the same adjustment under pressure.

A little frame flex is not really that bad. A little! Frames can be too stiff. Ben built a bench wheel from 3/8 plate and found it was to stiff to use because when he hits a bump in the panel it won't go through the rollers because the frame won't flex enough.

The frame acts like a big spring. You need the spring to be stiff enough to spread when you hit a bump and still be pressing down enough to compress the bump/and or stretch the metal. If the spring is too light, all your energy will go into stretching the spring and it won't have enough strength to compress any bumps or stretch the metal. Normally, I use very little pressure during initial shaping, just enough to knock down the lumps and smooth the panel somewhat. I prefer to do the majority of shape development with the hammer and tucking tool. Excess pressure over areas you are trying to shrink just stretches it back out, defeating the purpose. After I finish shape development, I'll wheel it a lot under heavy than finally lighter pressure to smooth the panel. During shape development, if the panel starts to get stiff from work hardening, you can wheel it a while to relieve the stresses and 'soften' the panel.

[anders nørgaard]

Hi Kerry,

I'm glad I got it right :D
Do you think it would be possible to build a selfaligning "cradle" as shown in the fig? :? The idea should be that the pressure should even out across the anvil! Don't know if it works, but I'll give it a chance, when I get that far :!:
(unless someone tied it already)

It's really GREAT that so many are interested in in other peoples projects. Sure would like to attend an MM sometime..... don't know if it will be possible :cry: Far and expensive trip :!:

Anders DK

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/500/4433Selfaligning_yoke.jpg

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Kerry,

I'm glad I got it right :D
Do you think it would be possible to build a selfaligning "cradle" as shown in the fig? :? The idea should be that the pressure should even out across the anvil! Don't know if it works, but I'll give it a chance, when I get that far :!:
(unless someone tied it already)

It's really GREAT that so many are interested in in other peoples projects. Sure would like to attend an MM sometime..... don't know if it will be possible :cry: Far and expensive trip :!:

Anders DK

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/500/4433Selfaligning_yoke.jpg


Hi Anders,

What hasn't been considered so far in this discussion is the torsional twist of the arms and backbone of an e-wheel frame. Torsional movements cause the wheels to jump over center causing a small defect in the panel. Both the torsional movements and the opening of frame happen when there is heavy loading on the frame.

I advocate over building any e-wheel frame you design to limit all movement as much as possible. It cannot be eliminated entirely, all frames will move .

As for the cost of traveling to MetalMeet from Europe, Ben and Emile have been attending for four years now and they have been able to fly over from the Netherlands very inexpensively. I believe they told me their flights cost around $350.00 this year round trip.

Dutch and I drove from upstate NY and we each paid around $200.00 in gas to drive the 900 miles to Robinson. We pulled several tons of tools though . :D

Wray

[anders nørgaard]

As for the cost of traveling to MetalMeet from Europe, Ben and Emile have been attending for four years now and they have been able to fly over from the Netherlands very inexpensively. I believe they told me their flights cost around $350.00 this year round trip.

Dutch and I drove from upstate NY and we each paid around $200.00 in gas to drive the 900 miles to Robinson. We pulled several tons of tools though .


Hi Wray,
Wauuuw, Would cost me 65o$ + just to fly from Copenhagen to NY :x :shock: Maybe I should try get in touch with Ben and Emile and go with them from the Netherlands :D :roll: :wink:

Anders

[dribble]

G'day Kerry,

Just came back online[7.30 pm,Thurs 10th],Im lucky that work allows us unlimited access to the internet.As usual your explanation
is clear and concise,I hadnt tried smoothing hammer marks yet but did today and you were right,with the frame "locked"down it was difficult to get the panel through the wheel without lessening the pressure greatly but worked fine when I took the turnburnbuckle off.Thanks again for your help,I cant wait to have a "real" project.I just got a back pay from work so purchased long wanted lathe[12"swing,36" between centres] and mill drill[geared head 32" table] so i guess I'll have to spend some time!!! learning to use these.will write again later.

Cheers Drib
Theres no such thing as cant