Simple louver tools

[Wray Schelin]

While at Dutch Comstock's CopperMeet last early Spring , Stan Lobitz
showed everyone a very simple louver tool that works very effectively
and is realitive easy to make with no need for an expensive deep throat press.

Here is a picture of the louver tool.
http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3001/4stan_slouvertool-med.JPG?4156

As you can see you only need to clamp the tool in a vise and then whack it good with a hammer. You index the louvers with a simple guide clamped on with vise grips. to make longer louvers you just slide the panel in the die and recut.

Here is a picture of the die which uses a plastic insert as the female lower part of the die.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3001/4louverdie.JPG?3912

Wray

[JonD]

Hi Wray,

Thanks for reposting the photo's.

I've been thinking about this since stan originally posted it way back when, How to construct the male punch part seems to be the tricky part :

What type of steel would be required for the male punch. Perhaps tool steel. This could then be shaped with a grinder.

My next question would be how to fix the punch to the mounting plate. Drilling tool steel seems almost impossible so perhaps silver soldering it to something you could actually drill and tap may be the answer.

What do you think ?

Regards

Jon

[Gene_Olson]

What type of steel would be required for the male punch. Perhaps tool steel. This could then be shaped with a grinder.

That is a whole 'nother field. There are so many tool steel alloys and there is a lot of good tool steel in junked parts. (like springs)
What tools do you have to work it with?


My next question would be how to fix the punch to the mounting plate. Drilling tool steel seems almost impossible so perhaps silver soldering it to something you could actually drill and tap may be the answer.


If you have already shaped a piece of hardened tool steel, you might be able to weld it to a plate with nickel rod. Another option might be to buy it annealed, drill, tap and shape it and then harden and temper it. (you could test the tool on soft aluminum before hardening)
Some steels are made to be water hardening, others oil hardening, and some even air hardening. Water is a fast quench, oil slower, air slowest. If you quenched an air hardening steel in water, it might explode from the stress.

That said, if you already have your punch formed out of regular low carbon steel, it still can be hardened somewhat and will last for a while. The key to that is even faster cooling than regular water. Salt water cools faster, but the olde time recipes for that used lye (very dangerous, bad chemical burns, blind guys) Rob Gunter looked at it and developed a variation using table salt and detergents to change the surface tension of the liquid so it grabbed onto the metal better.
You see when you quench something the water, oil is vaporised next to it and that vapor acts as insulation, slowing the quench.
a surficant or detergent helps the liquid slide past the bubbles and rewet the surface.

Search for "Super Quench" on the web.

Tempering is drawing back the hardness to a point were the steel is tougher and less brittle.

G

[Wray Schelin]

Hi Jon,

If you are cutting louvers in aluminum you could make the louver tool out of mild steel. Aluminum cuts very easy compared to steel. For long tool life and longer intervals beteen sharpenings you're best to use at least 4140 steel or a tool steel. A-2 tool steel is a good choice because it remains very stable after heat treating.

Whenever you use a tool steel you first make the tool with the steel in the annealed state then heat treat it. The male cutter of the louver die is threaded, same for the female die assembly.

You could make the louver die with a just hacksaw, drill press, and a 4.5" angle body grinder. You can buy preground annealed tool steel in the right sizes for both the male and female parts of the die. Any industrial supply house will supply you with A-2 tool steel, you can also find it on Ebay.

You could make a trail run of the die set first with mild steel, then upgrade to A-2.

The plastic insert stock is also easy to find on Ebay.

Cost for all of the materials would not be much. You might also be able to do the heat treat yourself, but there is a danger of getting the dies too hard and then having them crack.

Wray

[JonD]

hi Gene, Wray

Thanks for you quick responses.

The grade of the steel and wether it is annealed or not I had not considered. I was trying to visualize making the punch out of stuff I already had lying about. The reason I talked about using hardened tool steel is that I've already got some blank tool steel for making lathe tools from so was considering that since its square and hard.
I appreciate that it may be less effort getting some annealed steel and using this. Any time savings are great as none of us have enought time !!!!!

I like the idea of prototyping the punch out of mild steel, the benefits being that you would of made 95% of the finished punch with only fine tuning of the dies to be done if required.

I try to avoid posting questions like this as I'm not in the position to try this out for a couple of months due to other commitments and don't like 'wasting' other peoples time. I greatly appreciate your responses and will take them on board when I get round to building it.

Regards

Jon

[mr.c]

When I bought my pullmax,there was a small punch press that I was thinking about getting. It had a ton of tooling. Amongst the tooling was louver dies. The male punch was made from brass. Brass cutter on a steel mounting plate. I don't remember what the female die was. I passed on the machine since I didn't have a place to put it. I told someone else about it and it now belongs to a metal shaper in Ocala,FL.

[Tinman]

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/507/832DCP_1237.JPGhttp://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/507/832DCP_1234.JPG
Just made these today and they work good.

[Hemirambler]

Hey Tinman!!! That's SLICKER than snot on a doorknob!!!!

I always wondered about makign those for my beadroller. I see I NEED to get on the ball and get going!!!

I even wondered if it'd be worth the time to make an additional roller with "x" amount of groove to allow that "pressed in look"


Just thinking and admiring out loud!!!



Jacin in Ohio


SOMB

[Dick Bear]

Wray,

Looks like Stan Lobitz and I have more in common than our interest in racing. I hadn't seen this post before today but you'd think that we (Stan and I) had used the same napkin to design our louver cutter.

That's amazing!

Just goes to show you why 80% of patent applications are eliminated during the Patent Search phase ... and why only 3-5% of the remaining 20% are ever awarded a patent following the Examiner's review. So many clever individuals in the world, it seems someone has already done it in at least 97% of the time.

Dick Bear

[r.w.dewar]

I have been enjoying the posts on cycle kart builds and really enjoyed seeing your and Stans louver cutters. Way back around 1960 a friend of mine built such a setup to punch a pile of louvers in the hood of his customized 1950 Ford coupe. It was quit a job to organise, some one holding and someone else swinging the hammer. But it turned out good. Thanks, Bob.

[Dick Bear]

r.w.

That would scare the heck out of me! I only made a few sample strips and thought to myself, "boy this would be the way not to do it on anything too important". But I supose with further refinement the little imperfections I encountered could be worked out.

Thanks for following along with the carts prosess. What have you been working on?

Dick Bear

[Tinman]

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/507/832DCP_1242.JPGhttp://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/507/832DCP_1244.JPGI made these to finish the ends of my bead roll louvers.

[Bill Harrison]

I finally got my louver press on it's feet, I still have to get things lined up and working smoothly and add the hydraulics. Building this frame was a lot easier in my mind than in reality. Getting it flipped form one side to the other became a challenge as the weight started accumilating and it's taken way longer than I intended. I seem to complicate simple projects :? http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3306/31louver_press.jpeg[/url][img]

[Bill Harrison]

I finally got my louver press on it's feet, I still have to get things lined up and working smoothly and add the hydraulics. Building this frame was a lot easier in my mind than in reality. Getting it flipped form one side to the other became a challenge as the weight started accumilating and it's taken way longer than I intended. I seem to complicate simple projects :? [img]http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3306/31louver_press.jpeg[/url][img]

[Brian McCollim]

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3306/31louver_press.jpeg

Bill's louver press pictures.

http://www.metalmeet.com/photopost/data/3307/31IMAGE49-med.JPG

[ralph]

Picked up a little hint on louver tools today from a friend who makes his own. He puts a slight radius across the top of the male die to cause it to pierce in the center first and progressively across the steel.
He uses a Diacro hand press and this cuts way down on the pressure he needs to exert. This puts a slight hump on the louver which he removes with a light tap with a wooden hammer. His tools are made from hot roll and he confesses to the need to sharpen them quite often.

[Bill Harrison]

I would like to thank Ron Naida for helping me develop my louver dies.
Ron was a great help. Bill

[old buicks]

We run a restoration shop for older autos (pre 1930) and have ocassion to make new hood side panels and sometimes inner fender panels with various widths and lengths of louvers. How can I make some inexpensive tooling (time wise) for these various applications that come thru the door? Plus what type of power should I consider when forming the louvers - hydrallic, armstrong or arbor press? :?:

[Prostreet]

Hi Old buick (Tom) ?
Although I dont like to admit it East wood years ago had one that would do up to a 24" louver, or better. They might have one back in there (we dont make that anymore room) :roll: :roll: Maybe you could get a deal on one.
Steve

[Wray Schelin]

We run a restoration shop for older autos (pre 1930) and have ocassion to make new hood side panels and sometimes inner fender panels with various widths and lengths of louvers. How can I make some inexpensive tooling (time wise) for these various applications that come thru the door? Plus what type of power should I consider when forming the louvers - hydrallic, armstrong or arbor press? :?:


OB, Steve is correct Eastwood did sell a clever louver tool that was developed and previously sold by a PA restoration /coachbuilder shop ( the owners name escapes me , maybe someone will remember ) The machine used a shaped pipe cutter wheel that prgressively cut and formed louver as you stroked it back and forth between indexed stops.


You can also use a Pullmax or Pullmax like machine to cut the various width and length louvers .

I remembered the name of the developer of the louver tool. :shock:

DL George Coachworks, he also made a video tape showing how the machine works. He had and maybe still has a very successful racing prep and coachworks business. I think he was located in north central PA.

Wray

[Prostreet]

Hi Guys
Wray back in the 90's I actually bought one it was a slick tool but it would not do 16 gauge nor would it do stainless so I built a hyd-louver press and sold that one . Maybe i should have kept it but eastwood was not very good with there service after the sale. :?
The rollers that cut the louvers would leave a rumble mark Lots of tiny imperfections. they sol for 1100.00 I got mine on an intro deal for 800.00 . with some work it would be a neat piece.
Steve

[old buicks]

Thanks for the quick replies on the louvre tooling guys. I plan to attend the workshop in Robinson, Il and hope to rub shoulders with some of you experts on this subject and many more. See you soon.

Tom

[Prostreet]

Hi Ralph
When we built my louver press we made the bottom dies out of a uhmw with a cutting blade in it and the blade pitches to the center
which initiates the cut in the louver. I am going to take some photos of our machine and close ups of the dies .

Note: when I say we a machinist friend of mine Bob did all the tooling , and they have lasted over 10 years.

Steve

[marioD]

I bought one of those Eastwood Cut'n form Louver rollers on an introduction on the Street rod Nats in Kentucky in the late 80's.

Never used it a lot cause the frame is not rigid enough as soon as you clamped the sheet in the back the front came loose causing it to move during rolling. I still have it always wanted to modify the frame but never did.

I bought a GTL Louver press in 84 from a company called the Good Times Louvers in Sacramento in kit form
that meant all the components and a 3" die except the frame but he sold me the blueprint of it.

As i'm living in Germany the shipping would have been too expensive. Since then i'm in the buisness punching Louvers and still the only one in Germany doing it.

there's a few pics on my site showing both presses
http://www.speedlook.de you want to go for galerie -> shop
to see them.

I also started doing fenders and sheetmetal for motorcycles and i'm in the progress of practicing tankbuilding at the moment.

Love this site learned already a lot from it!

By the way any more germans around?

[Gonejunking]

Hi MarioD
Liked your site!
Never thought about putting Louvers on mc gas tanks!
I liked you work on the 7. Wish you had a better picture of it (larger). I'm building one, and might like to put some louvers in the sides like you did.

[Boogiemanz1]

I've seen louvers on a motorcycle tank before, and I don't think thats the best place for them...........think cheese grater.............john

[Gene Newcomb]

I am buidling a louver press for market. It started as a conversion for the new floor model I have on Ebay (OKLAHRDW) and I am still doing it but I am going to weld up a new unit with my bench-top jig table.
24" or so deep. 12" Vert ID. I have 3 or 4 pcs 3/4 x 2" 4140 bars I am using for blades left over from a production job. I'll flame harden the prototypes but if it works I'll take them to the heat treaters.
I'm using the DOM from my big unit, cutting up a weld up kit, for the jack assembly.
I hope to try it out Thur. Probably won't be back on-line till I'm done.
Gene

[Gene Newcomb]

http://i15.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/e8/5f/8f_1_b.JPG
Works sweet. Makes a 4" louver in 16 ga CR. That is actually 16 ga galvanized pictured.

[Boogiemanz1]

Gene can you post a picture of several punched in a row? Did you make the dies? Most four inch louvers usually have a larger more rounded opening, but it is hard to tell from the picture....................john

[Gene Newcomb]

John,
I'll get more pics next week. I did several 2" wide last week but it didn't look good "nibbled" and I wanted it to do a 4" without making a mating shaped die, ie I wanted to air bend it. It seems to like the rubber in the slot on the bottom so nibbling might not have worked. I have a 1.5" flat in the middle and I put a 5' shear to the ends. I put a 10' angle front to back and a 30' (in the 10' plane) relief on the ends about 3/16" deep. Then I smoothed out the breaks on the table sander. Easier to do than draw. I have some significant changes to make but I want to put it in production next week.
SHearing did not work but I only tried once. I wanted to get it listed and it was after 3 on Thanksgiving eve. I will make a bending attachment.
Gene

[Gene Newcomb]

http://allshops.org/community/CommunityAlbum/Thumbs/9980179016528.jpg
http://allshops.org/community/CommunityAlbum/Thumbs/9990179016529.jpg

[Gene Newcomb]

John,
I don't have much light gage sheet laying around. This is 16 ga drop off. You can see when the louvers are close the bottom one opens the mouth of the one above it. It also sucks in if you get too close to the edge.
Gene

[Boogiemanz1]

Gene, thanks for the pictures.....john